Ten Commandments

[frtrue]

A dispute arose yesterday in our Bible Study regarding the Catholic translation of the 10 Commandments in which two people maintained the Catholic Bible eliminated the Second Commandment --“Thou shalt have on other Gods before me…”
I disagreed with their statement. Can you clear this up for me? Thanks.

 

[JAGCath28]

I had heard this argument as well between Karl Keating actually and that Baptist preacher. The commandment they claim that was removed was the graven image commandment which is why our churches are chocked full of them. So we can worship these images without breaking the commandments

HOWEVER… when you read the catechism, you see that this commandment was not removed, but instead included as the first commandment. Starting in Part 3, Section 2, Chapter 1 of the Catechism: it describes all the commandments that fall under Christ’s first commandment of loving God with all your mind, heart and soul.

There are four sections described in this part:

1. YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE
2. HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE
3. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
4. YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE

Here’s what the catechism says about graven images.

IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . " It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."He is “the author of beauty.”

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

 

[JAGCath28]

I reread your post and thought you may also want to read 2110-2128 in the Catechism because this covers the “no other gods before me” issue.

Also, do you have a Catholic Bible? If they are claiming that these were removed from the Catholic Bible the easiest way to settle that dispute would be to show them Exodus 20 from your Catholic Bible. My NAB definitely mentions that commandment.

Exodus 20: 2-3 “I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me.”-NAB

 

[Joe_5859]

Here is one article that addresses the issue:

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403fea3.asp

Basically, it’s much ado about nothing. Here is how the various groups traditionally divide the Commandments:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Division_of_the_commandments_as_listed_in_Exodus_20

The traditional Catholic numbering (which is not a dogmatic definition) places the commandment against idols as a corollary of the First Commandment (“No other gods besides me”).

Many Protestants, on the other hand, prefer to separate the two and instead lump people’s wives into the same catgory as their property.

 

[patrick457]

The traditional Catholic numbering (which is not a dogmatic definition) places the commandment against idols as a corollary of the First Commandment (“No other gods besides me”).

The modern Jewish reckoning does so as well, if I may add. The statement, “I am the LORD your God” is counted as the first commandment (or, to be more literal, “word”) while “No other gods” is considered the second.

Interestingly I still haven’t heard any complaints that Jews hid or struck out “No graven images”. It’s always Catholics, ain’t it?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .

Many Protestants, on the other hand, prefer to separate the two and instead lump people’s wives into the same category as their property.

I am surprised that there is not more protest of that.

 

[Crumpy]

We shouldn’t be – I think – unnecessarily rigorous or righteous about the numbering of the “ten” commandments. If you actually read them, it seems like there are twelve or thirteen things spelled out there.

A Jewish book on ethics and morality that I read recently numbered the commandments differently.

The first five, according to this author, mention God. So, that would rearrage things a bit. Then, the rest of the commandments are about people. So, there, five and five.

In the Biblical text, there is NO numbering, so we are all on thin ice with God, emphasizing a trivial feature of God’s commands. There are so many Protestants who rave and rant about “not adding to scripture” and there they go, getting so “hot” about numbering – of course, some of us do too – which we shouldn’t. It’s far more important to obey the commandments.

And, this thread – about the wording – we should be reading the scripture, and we shouldn’t be abridging these commands from God.

I think it’s good to wade into Jewish discussions of the commandments – they count 613 commandments in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The book on Jewish ethics and morals I was referring to is “Love Your Neighbor and Yourself - A Jewish Approach to Modern Personal Ethics” by Rabbi Elliot N.Dorff.

This book is a mixed bag – good and bad things – reckoned against Catholic teaching. It says divorce is OK, abortion and contraception are OK, masturbation is OK ( it wasn’t a problem in Biblical times, because people married so early; now that marriage is delayed so many years, M is harmless, the author says), and there are other surprises.

But, Dorff has that discussion of the Ten Commandments that I referred to above, and he has good discussions about responsibiities of caring for our parents – housing and feeding them in their old age, for example. See? He appeals to scripture, and then extends the ancient writings to our context. This is a good example of that thought process.

 

[crazzeto]

A dispute arose yesterday in our Bible Study regarding the Catholic translation of the 10 Commandments in which two people maintained the Catholic Bible eliminated the Second Commandment --“Thou shalt have on other Gods before me…”
I disagreed with their statement. Can you clear this up for me? Thanks.

You should see this very interesting website:

biblicalheritage.org/Bible%20Studies/10%20Commandments.htm

Has the jewish, catholic and protistant 10 commandments sitting side by side. Notice how the Iconoclast protistants are the only ones that have “You shall not make unto you any graven images”? Looks a little more like the Prostiatants added a commandment and booted some others off.

Additionally, I beleive the protestants are the only ones to derive their 10 from Exodus.

 

[patrick457]

You should see this very interesting website:

biblicalheritage.org/Bible%20Studies/10%20Commandments.htm

Has the jewish, catholic and protistant 10 commandments sitting side by side. Notice how the Iconoclast protistants are the only ones that have “You shall not make unto you any graven images”? Looks a little more like the Prostiatants added a commandment and booted some others off.

Additionally, I beleive the protestants are the only ones to derive their 10 from Exodus.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. What is usually termed the ‘Protestant’ division actually predates them!* This numbering was already found in the writings of Philo and Josephus and was later adopted by the Eastern Churches, before Protestants even came into the scene (for us Western Christians, St. Augustine’s division, formulated in the 5th century, came into predominance ).

Now the most excellent five were of this character, they related to the monarchial principle on which the world is governed; to images and statues, and in short to all erections of any kind made by hand; to the duty of not taking the name of God in vain; to that of keeping the holy seventh day in a manner worthy of its holiness; to paying honour to parents both separately to each, and commonly to both. So that of the one table the beginning is the God and Father and Creator of the universe; and the end are one’s parents, who imitate his nature, and so generate the particular individuals. And the other table of five contains all the prohibitions against adulteries, and murder, and theft, and false witness, and covetousness.

• Philo, De Decalogo 12.51

When he had said this, he brought the people, with their wives and children, so near the mountain, that they might hear God himself speaking to them about the precepts which they were to practice; that the energy of what should be spoken might not be hurt by its utterance by that tongue of a man, which could but imperfectly deliver it to their understanding. And they all heard a voice that came to all of them from above, insomuch that no one of these words escaped them, which Moses wrote on two tables; which it is not lawful for us to set down directly, but their import we will declare:

The first commandment teaches us that there is but one God, and that we ought to worship him only. The second commands us not to make the image of any living creature to worship it. The third, that we must not swear by God in a false matter. The fourth, that we must keep the seventh day, by resting from all sorts of work. The fifth, that we must honor our parents. The sixth that we must abstain from murder. The seventh that we must not commit adultery. The eighth, that we must not be guilty of theft. The ninth, that we must not bear false witness. The tenth, that we must not admit of the desire of any thing that is another’s.

• Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 5.5

We can’t really say it was done for Iconoclastic purposes or that each and everyone of those who use the division are ‘iconoclastic’, since we might as well accuse the Eastern Churches - who have imagery as well and have themselves suffered under the Iconoclast heresy in the 8th-9th centuries - of being one!

• Nor is it universal among those professing the ‘Reformed’ banner. Martin Luther actually kept the Augustinian division with one modification: he preferred to follow the word order of Exodus 20, and so his ninth commandment became a prohibition against coveting the house and his tenth prohibited coveting the wife, slaves, and animals.

 

[Cristian_B]

HOWEVER… when you read the catechism, you see that this commandment was not removed, but instead included as the first commandment.

The difficult part to understand is: WHY?

 

[Cristian_B]

We shouldn’t be – I think – unnecessarily rigorous or righteous about the numbering of the “ten” commandments. If you actually read them, it seems like there are twelve or thirteen things spelled out there.

More than ten commandments? Not according to Scriptures. And He wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me. ~Deuteronomy 10:4 KJV (bold mine)

 

[NHInsider]

More than ten commandments? Not according to Scriptures. And He wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me. ~Deuteronomy 10:4 KJV (bold mine)

That’s a very odd translation. My KJV says “God spake all these words.” A quick cross-check of 19 different translations - every one of them says “all.”

What edition is your KJV I wonder?

 

[PRmerger]

More than ten commandments? Not according to Scriptures. And He wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me. ~Deuteronomy 10:4 KJV (bold mine)

Yes, of course its “ten” commandments. However, if you know your Scriptures well, you would know that there’s actually 14 directives, or commandments, that are given there.

It’s just a matter of the Church determining where all the directives go. Scripture did not tell us how to divide them. God left it up to the CC.

Just like it was a matter of the Church to tell us what was Scripture and what was not. Scripture does not tell us. It’s part of the Sacred Tradition of the CC that you obey, unwittingly or consciously–doesn’t matter.

 

[Cristian_B]

That’s a very odd translation. My KJV says “God spake all these words.” A quick cross-check of 19 different translations - every one of them says “all.”

What edition is your KJV I wonder?

Let’s see … I’ll post my ‘parallels’ as well.

Deu 10:4

(ASV) And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which Jehovah spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and Jehovah gave them unto me.

(BBE) And he put on the stones, as in the first writing, the ten rules which the Lord gave you on the mountain out of the fire on the day of the great meeting: and the Lord gave the stones to me.

(CEV) where the LORD wrote the Ten Commandments on them, just as he had done the first time. The commandments were exactly what he had announced from the fire, when you were gathered at the mountain. After the LORD returned the stones to me,

(Darby) And he wrote on the tables, as the first writing, the ten words which Jehovah spoke unto you on the mountain, from the midst of the fire, on the day of the assembly, and Jehovah gave them unto me.

(DRB) And he wrote in the tables, according as he had written before**, the ten words**, which the Lord spoke to you in the mount from the midst of the fire, when the people were assembled: and he gave them to me.

(ESV) And he wrote on the tablets, in the same writing as before, the Ten Commandments that the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain out of the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly. And the LORD gave them to me.

(FLS) L’Éternel écrivit sur les tables ce qui avait été écrit sur les premières, les dix paroles qu’il vous avait dites sur la montagne, du milieu du feu, le jour de l’assemblée; et l’Éternel me les donna.

(GNB) Then the LORD wrote on those tablets the same words that he had written the first time, the Ten Commandments that he gave you when he spoke from the fire on the day you were gathered at the mountain. The LORD gave me the tablets,

(GW) The LORD wrote on these tablets the same words as before**, the ten commandments**. He had spoken these words to you from the fire on the mountain on the day of the assembly. Then the LORD gave them to me.

RIGHTויכתבH3789 עלH5921 הלחתH3871 כמכתבH4385 הראשׁוןH7223 אתH853 עשׂרתH6235 הדבריםH1697 אשׁרH834 דברH1696 יהוהH3068 אליכםH413 בהרH2022 מתוךH8432 האשׁH784 ביוםH3117 הקהלH6951 ויתנםH5414 יהוהH3068 אלי׃H413 [/RIGHT]
H6235
עשׂרה עשׂר
‛eśer ‛ăśârâh
eh’-ser, as-aw-raw’
From H6237; ten (as an accumulation to the extent of the digits): - ten, [fif-, seven-] teen.
(JPS) And He wrote on the tables according to the first writing, the ten words, which the LORD spoke unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them unto me.

Part 1

 

[Cristian_B]

Part 2

(KJV) And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing**, the ten commandments**, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

(KJV+) And he wroteH3789 onH5921 the tables,H3871 according to the firstH7223 writing,H4385 (H853) the tenH6235 commandments,H1697 whichH834 the LORDH3068 spakeH1696 untoH413 you in the mountH2022 out of the midstH4480 H8432 of the fireH784 in the dayH3117 of the assembly:H6951 and the LORDH3068 gaveH5414 them untoH413 me.

(KJVA) And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

(LITV) And He wrote on the tablets according to the writing**, the Ten Commandments** which Jehovah had spoken to you in the mountain, out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly. And Jehovah gave them to me,
(MKJV) And He wrote on the tablets, according to the first writing, the Ten Commandments which Jehovah spoke to you in the mountain out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly. And Jehovah gave them to me.

(RDCT-OLD)Domnul a scris pe table ce fusese scris pe cele dintîi, cele zece porunci cari vă fuseseră spuse pe munte, din mijlocul focului, în ziua adunării; şi Domnul mi le-a dat.

(RV) And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

(SRV) Y escribió en las tablas conforme á la primera escritura**, las diez palabras** que Jehová os había hablado en el monte de en medio del fuego, el día de la asamblea; y diómelas Jehová.

(Vulgate) scripsitque in tabulis iuxta id quod prius scripserat verba decem quae locutus est Dominus ad vos in monte de medio ignis quando populus congregatus est et dedit eas mihi

(Webster) And he wrote on the tables according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spoke to you in the mount, from the midst of the fire, in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them to me.

(YLT) `And He writeth on the tables, according to the first writing, the Ten Matters, which Jehovah hath spoken unto you in the mount, out of the midst of the fire, in the day of the assembly, and Jehovah giveth them unto me,

Are you sure you read Deuteronomy 10:4? Because in all my translations it says ‘ten’, speaking about the commandments spoken by God and written on the tablets of stone.

 

[crazzeto]

It sure does, of course that doesn’t mean the Jewish people were limited to 10 commandments They had 600+ of them actually, called “the law” collectivly.

 

[Cristian_B]

Yes, of course its “ten” commandments. However, if you know your Scriptures well, you would know that there’s actually 14 directives, or commandments, that are given there.

So the God doesn’t actually mean what He says …

No. There are only 10 commandments. The other ‘4 commandments’ are part of the same commandment but you just chose to count it as one disregarding Deuteronomy 10:4 where it says there are only ten, which are these (the bold part, the grey is an explanation or further detail of the commandment):

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; [introduction]

I Do not have any other gods before me.

II You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. [the Grey part is further detail and a message of hope]

III You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. [the Grey part is the reason of why not]

 **IV  Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.** For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall  not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female  slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all  that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed  the Sabbath day and consecrated it. Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long  in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. [here the commandment is the bold part; the Grey is further explanation, details and reasons for why]

** V Honor your father and your mother**, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. [Grey part are reasons of why to keep it]

** VI You shall not murder.**

** VII You shall not commit adultery.**

** VIII You shall not steal.**

** XI You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.**

** X You shall not covet** your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or ** anything that belongs to your neighbor.** [the Grey part are examples of what not to covet, but it’s the same commandment: thous shall not covet]

It’s just a matter of the Church determining where all the directives go. Scripture did not tell us how to divide them. God left it up to the CC.

Actually, it is pretty obvious how they should be divided.

Just like it was a matter of the Church to tell us what was Scripture and what was not. Scripture does not tell us. It’s part of the Sacred Tradition of the CC that you obey, unwittingly or consciously–doesn’t matter.

God worked trough the Church and the Jews to create the Scriptures. Don’t take too much credit.

 

[Cristian_B]

It sure does, of course that doesn’t mean the Jewish people were limited to 10 commandments They had 600+ of them actually, called “the law” collectivly.

The discussion is about the commandments written on the two tablets of stone and not in the book of the Law.

 

[NHInsider]

Part 2
Are you sure you read Deuteronomy 10:4? Because in all my translations it says ‘ten’, speaking about the commandments spoken by God and written on the tablets of stone.

No, I was at Exodus 20:1. I’m sorry to have missed your reference and put you to the trouble.

The Deuteronomy 10 passage does not contain a list of the commandments, simply Moses speaking about God having been given the second set of tablets containing the “Ten Words.” Which is, in fact, the way the Jews and all of us have traditionally referred to them. But - in the passages where the commandments are actually listed, there are always more than 10 imperatives - which leads to this ever-repeating discussion of “which are the I-X, and which are (if you will) the A,B,C (extensions or explanations of I-X)?”

 

[PRmerger]

So the God doesn’t actually mean what He says …

Of course He does. The CC has 10 of them–does it not?

But, if you count in Exodus, there’s actually 14 directives.

Actually, it is pretty obvious how they should be divided.

LOL! Now, you’re showing another man-made tradition that you follow. What basis are you using to divide them? Scripture doesn’t tell you, does it, Cristian?

God worked trough the Church and the Jews to create the Scriptures. Don’t take too much credit.

Yep. That’s exactly what the CC does–it gives all the credit to the Holy Spirit.

Just remember, each and every time you quote Scripture you’re giving tacit approval to the authority of the CC.

You would not know that the book of James is inspired but the Gospel of the Nazoreans is not, were it not for the authority of the CC.