Ten Men in a Boat

[davidv]

Thoughts:

What if the Captain was wrong? What if only eight could make it, or if all ten could, and he simply miscounted the water? Someone might be throwing their life away on speculation.

Does not alter the fundamental principle, no evil can be performed to bring about good.

What is the fundamental difference between what Kolbe did and what a suicide does? Is what we are talking about here really suicide?

I believe that one fundament difference is: who is the aggressor. In Kolbe’s case it was his captors. In a suicide’s case it is the self.

I feel as if I set this problem up poorly. I apologize. Can people help fix it? How could it have been better phrased to set up the dilemma?

Most of the time these dilemmas are proposed to debunk moral theology. As such, they are always set up poorly. As long as the questioner restricts the answers there can be no fix to the setup.

 

[runningdude]

Does not alter the fundamental principle, no evil can be performed to bring about good.

I believe that one fundament difference is: who is the aggressor. In Kolbe’s case it was his captors. In a suicide’s case it is the self.

I concur with this. A deliberate death always involves a sin. In a suicide, the sin on the one committing it (to extent culpable). In a murder situation, it is the on the aggressor. In an execution situation, it is on the guilty party. No sin can be morally permitted, however once committed, it “frees the hand”, so to speak, of the aggressed to address the situation proportionately. Hence, why self-defense is permitted.

Most of the time these dilemmas are proposed to debunk moral theology. As such, they are always set up poorly. As long as the questioner restricts the answers there can be no fix to the setup.

Hence, my initial response to the OP’s post!

 

[DrTaffy]

For those saying that the relevant factor is whether or not the risk of death comes from another person (as in the grenade) or from natural risks, I don’t agree.

Why would throwing yourself in front of a bullet be laudable self-sacrifice, but throwing yourself in the way of a naturally falling rock be sinful suicide, if in both cases the intent was to save a child? (And assuming no alternative means of saving the child were available, of course)

For those saying the men in the boat should simply pray or hope for a miracle, why then is this not the advice of the Church in the case of the ectopic pregnancy? The doctors could just wait and pray for a miracle to resolve the matter (there are, I gather, a tiny number of cases of ectopic pregnancies that came to term without death on either side) but the advice is (I gather) to remove the fallopian tube + embryo.

To put it another way, why would the more perfect choice not to be to get out of the boat and start optimistically doggy-paddling towards land, thereby definitely (by the rules of the hypothetical question) saving the nine others but leaving open the option of a miraculous rescue of yourself? Again, dolphins have been know to rescue swimmers - although I think it is Terry Pratchett who points out that we maybe just don’t hear about the cases where the dolphin prefers to bite the human in half and have long pig for lunch!

 

[Truthstalker]

The most interesting part of this for me is how people are working the problem: the process, more than the solution.

 

[runningdude]

For those saying that the relevant factor is whether or not the risk of death comes from another person (as in the grenade) or from natural risks, I don’t agree.

Why would throwing yourself in front of a bullet be laudable self-sacrifice, but throwing yourself in the way of a naturally falling rock be sinful suicide, if in both cases the intent was to save a child? (And assuming no alternative means of saving the child were available, of course)…

I don’t think anybody was saying that. Getting crushed by rocks would be a natural evil. It would be morally acceptable to intervene to prevent someone from being crushed, even at the risk of one’s life.

 

[Bella92]

What St Maximilian Kolbe did was very different. He was in a concentration camp and the Nazis had decided that 10 prisoners would be murdered by starvation (they provided some water).

Hang about mate. You said suicide was deliberately entering a situation which you know will certainly result in your death and you said the nazis had decided to murder 10 prisoners. When that priest took one of their places, he was deliberately entering a situation which he knew will certainly result in his death, so according to you, he committed suicide, which is a mortal sin.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Hang about mate. You said suicide was deliberately entering a situation which you know will certainly result in your death and you said the nazis had decided to murder 10 prisoners. When that priest took one of their places, he was deliberately entering a situation which he knew will certainly result in his death, so according to you, he committed suicide, which is a mortal sin.

suicide is taking ones own life out of despair. ‘no greater love can any man have than to lay down his life for his friends’.