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Asinner
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It’s not the readings from Scripture that get changed by the lectors that I run into. It’s the priest changing other words in the order of Mass, like changing words during the Eucharistic Prayer.
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commenter
Guest
Posters who have never experienced the liturgical abuses described here should offer a prayer of gratitude. A letter to the pastor thanking him for reverent liturgies is in order.
Pastors likely hear from parishioners only when there are complaints. Don’t take your pleasant situation for granted.
Pastors likely hear from parishioners only when there are complaints. Don’t take your pleasant situation for granted.
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CradleRC58
Guest
Here you go.
…
… http://www.newliturgicalmovement.or...communion-in-hand-while.html?m=1#.XiuEIpBOk0M
And another…
onepeterfive.com
And one more…
…
… http://www.newliturgicalmovement.or...communion-in-hand-while.html?m=1#.XiuEIpBOk0M
And another…
The True Story of Communion in the Hand Revealed
Don Federico Bortoli is presently the pastor of the parish of Sant’Andrea Apostolo in Acquaviva in the Diocese of San Marino Montefeltro. He is also diocesan chancellor, judicial vicar…
onepeterfive.com
And one more…
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commenter
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The Church has granted full permission for Communion in the hand, at least in most places. Therefore it is not a “liturgical abuse”.
Some people might not like the fact that most others receive that way. But it is not a liturgical abuse. This is muddying the water, making it harder to identify and root out genuine abuses.
Some people might not like the fact that most others receive that way. But it is not a liturgical abuse. This is muddying the water, making it harder to identify and root out genuine abuses.
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Gorgias
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Hmm. Can you show me where that is, in the document? I’m not seeing it at 6.2.
This presumes that it’s a liturgical abuse to begin with.
So, when the rubrics tell the celebrant to fold his hands, the laity are forbidden to do so? Or when the priest is to stand, the laity may not? I think you’re mischaracterizing the document here – straining the gnat, and swallowing the camel.
No… it’s your interpretation of what is stated in a document.
They’re not in Mass. By definition, it’s not a “homily”.
LOL!Anything that is done that I don’t like or personally approve of is liturgical abuse.
Yep… that’s generally how it goes!
The rubrics don’t require a homily to be preached “from the sanctuary”.
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matas2
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Your statements, and a link to a very long writing, are misleading. Quote for us exactly where in the Vatican document that the Orans posture is prohibited.
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AlNg
Guest
So holding hands during the Our Father is not a Liturgical Abuse.
The article says differently:
" 8. Holding hands during the Our Father.
This is oddly widespread in the United States but it’s an illicit addition to the liturgy. The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice “must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.” And anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because “no other person . . . may add . . . anything [to] the liturgy on his own authority” (ibid)."
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Zach
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I wasn’t claiming they do nor am I claiming you are claiming that I claimed that. I was responding to this from the article: “Incidentally, he may not leave the sanctuary during the homily (GIRM 97).” Since the article is old that has probably been amended, or at least I recall reading that at least in the US it no longer holds.
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dochawk
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For EC and EO, it is often noted that “traditional” means “at the time of my grandfather’s Chrysmation” . . .
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Fuerza
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I told you exactly where in the document to find what I’m referencing. I’m not sure what’s misleading about it. It says it in black and white. I also don’t know why you’re being so hostile. This really isn’t something (name removed by moderator)lan in arguing over. Though the article does call it a grave abuse.
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Fuerza
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It’s literally in article 6 paragraph 2. I’m not sure how you’re not seeing it.
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Gorgias
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The article appears to misrepresent (or at least, misunderstand) the text in Notitiae, which asks a different question than the author attempts to present to us. The issue isn’t whether hand-holding at the Lord’s Prayer is illicit and an addition to the rubrics – it’s whether hand-holding at the Lord’s Prayer instead of expressing peace to each other at the invitation of the deacon is licit. Notitiae points out that the answer to that question is “no”, not whether mere hand-holding is illicit:
I’m not even gonna attempt to parse that. 
From the GIRM:
It’s interpretatively there, by your own personal interpretation of the text. I’ve provided two counter-examples that demonstrate that this interpretation, when held strictly in the way that you suggest, are self-contradictory.
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matas2
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You attempted to use a long Vatican document to lend your opinion an air of authority. The words “Orans” or “posture” don’t even appear anywhere in the article. All it says is that the “deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful” can’t join the priest in executing priestly functions during Eucharistic celebrations. We are not allowed dress up like priests and gather round the sanctuary and “quasi preside” over the Mass. We can’t speak out loud Eucharistic prayers with the priest. That’s what it says.
Saying the Our Father prayer during Mass IS something that non-ordained members of the faithful do. So adopting this or that posture during the Our Father is in no way going to confuse the distinct roles of ordained and non-ordained during Mass which is what Article 6 Number 2 was all about. Praying the Our Father is what we are supposed to be doing. Then there is this:
http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wor...ing-the-eucharistic-prayer-and-our-father.cfm
Hostile? This is an intellectual discussion. And you got called out on what you wrote - mainly by Gorgias and Tis Bearself, but I joined in too when I felt that your responses were weak. Attacking the idea isn’t the same as an ad hominem attack Mister. There is no hostile here.
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AlNg
Guest
That is true to some extent. However, consider the sentence:
“Ceteroquin est gestus liturgicus spontanee sed privato inceptu inductus: non invenitur in rubricis.”
That specifically says: " Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics"
Does this not mean that hand holding is a liturgical gesture which is not in the rubrics? And that it was not introduced officially?
Generally speaking is it OK to make personal and spontaneous additions to the liturgy on your own initiative without any official permission? And if you do so, would it be considered a liturgical abuse?
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commenter
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A measure of common Sense and balance is called for. I don’t think the Church cares if a couple spontaneously decides to hold hands in the Our Father. But I was in one parish a few decades ago where it was practically mandatory.
Even if you were a stranger, sitting alone, people would insist you join their “line”, a continuous chain of persons holding hands across the Church, and from row to row, including the priest. Then they would raise the hands at one point, singing the Lord’s prayer.
Then of course the Sign of Peace would go on for several minutes. What had begun as a spontaneous gesture became a parish rubric, written in stone.
Even if you were a stranger, sitting alone, people would insist you join their “line”, a continuous chain of persons holding hands across the Church, and from row to row, including the priest. Then they would raise the hands at one point, singing the Lord’s prayer.
Then of course the Sign of Peace would go on for several minutes. What had begun as a spontaneous gesture became a parish rubric, written in stone.
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TK421
Guest
The original article is not entirely correct. The orans posture is not prohibited.
The orans posture is not an exclusively priestly posture. An example of something the celebrant does exclusively is when he holds his hands over the altar during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
There are zealous people on the internet who want to say otherwise, but the Church has an ordered hierarchy and it is the grave obligation of bishops to tell the faithful if something they are doing at Mass is a liturgical abuse.
The orans posture is not an exclusively priestly posture. An example of something the celebrant does exclusively is when he holds his hands over the altar during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
There are zealous people on the internet who want to say otherwise, but the Church has an ordered hierarchy and it is the grave obligation of bishops to tell the faithful if something they are doing at Mass is a liturgical abuse.
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godisgood77
Guest
I’ve been to a few parishes where the Hail Mary prayer is added in to the mass after the petitions. That prayer is foreign to the order of the mass and seems to me to be as much of more of an abuse than some of the things listed.
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St.Leonard
Guest
In England it is at the end of the bidding prayers and has been for centuries in every Mass due to England being Mary’s dowry. Speak to the Pope about it.
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godisgood77
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Vico
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