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"Ten Objections to Women Priests " by a former female Episcopalian priest
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Willing_Spirit
Active member
I think points 2-4 were weak and kind of irrelevant, but the rest are good points. I’m confused how they make arguments about authority, saying the Church is not a democracy, but still insist on remaining Protestant.
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OldCAFMember
Guest
Oh, these are points that need to be spoken more frequently, but many are timid. For those who us who remember the Episcopal Church in the 1970s (and I lived in Paul Moore’s diocese), this was a huge thing, as the article avers. Over time people have forgotten the connection, but it’s still there.
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Inquiry
Guest
I think points 2 and 3 are profoundly important when it comes to apostolic succession, because even if they hadn’t already lost their succession, and even if ordaining women wasn’t already a deficit of intent, ordaining to further an external activist cause still would be.
Willing_Spirit
Active member
See, that sounds backwards to me. Something should be avoided because it is wrong itself, not because it is pushed for by activists that push for other wrongs.
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Inquiry
Guest
Well in this case the issue is that Ordination is a sacrament and sacraments have certain requirements that must be met and these include form, matter and intent. Intent is normally not much of a requirement unless there is an obvious lack of intent. Ordaining for primarily activist reasons shows that lack. Allowing ordination for activist reasons implies a lack of intent for the entire Anglican church. If the Anglican Church as a whole has a lack of intent then none of their ordinations from that point forward would be valid. Apostolic succession would be broken.
Y’know, if it wasn’t broken for them already.
Y’know, if it wasn’t broken for them already.
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TK421
Guest
Yes, it is a conflation.
The same thing happens with issues the Church supports such as environmentalism or banning capital punishment (among other issues). A majority of secular liberals just so happen to support these issues, and this in itself turns off some Catholics and other Christian groups, because they don’t want to have any sort of association with such people.
Female ordinations are impossible in of themselves, not because of what members of the female clergy in some denominations say or do. It is true that women in the clergy statistically more frequently cave-in on social issues that are gravely evil and this leads to a collapse of their congregations, but that in itself isn’t why they can’t be priests.
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njlisa
Guest
@TK421: Can you please supply some backup for the statement I have bold-faced below?
The rector of our parish was a woman. But she was part of the general culture of the diocese. During every mass, we recited the Nicene Creed.
However, on Good Friday, she rejected the atonement. I snapped and left the parish and the Episcopal Church.
The Episcopal Church is dying in New Jersey. But I don’t blame women. I blame the lack of theological clarity.
For three years, I attended an Episcopal church in the Diocese of Newark. Bishop John Spong was extremely liberal. When he visited the parish, I refused to attend.
The rector of our parish was a woman. But she was part of the general culture of the diocese. During every mass, we recited the Nicene Creed.
However, on Good Friday, she rejected the atonement. I snapped and left the parish and the Episcopal Church.
The Episcopal Church is dying in New Jersey. But I don’t blame women. I blame the lack of theological clarity.
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TK421
Guest
I kind of thought it was common knowledge, but here is a HuffPost article that talks about the disparities among congregations (the linked article is supportive of female clergy):
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/religious-leaders-political-affiliation_n_593ed39fe4b02402687bc881
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njlisa
Guest
@TK421
Thanks so much for this link and God bless you.
@TK421
I would like to add a couple of more points.
There is a parallel among women religious. The liberal orders are declining while traditional orders are growing.
While the priesthood is not appropriate for women, women play an irreplaceable role in the R.C. Church. At the parish level, women fill roles of leadership and ministry. Outside of parishes, they are professors, theologians, and hospital administrators. Traditional religious carry out the work of the gospel. And cloistered contemplatives provide the all-important intercession for the church.
Thanks so much for this link and God bless you.
@TK421
I would like to add a couple of more points.
There is a parallel among women religious. The liberal orders are declining while traditional orders are growing.
While the priesthood is not appropriate for women, women play an irreplaceable role in the R.C. Church. At the parish level, women fill roles of leadership and ministry. Outside of parishes, they are professors, theologians, and hospital administrators. Traditional religious carry out the work of the gospel. And cloistered contemplatives provide the all-important intercession for the church.
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Edmundus1581
Guest
Some people have to learn the hard way, but at least the author learned. She has thought through the lessons well and produced a remarkable analysis.
I haven’t seen most of these reflections on “Why” before. From what I recall of the discussions we’ve had in CAF the discussions mostly reflect on the basic arguments about whether the Church teaching is “infallible”, whether it is biblical, whether it is “oppressive” of women, etc. There was even a long thread on “why” and I don’t recall much that was as simple and direct as in this well-argued document.
Still, most of these are, in a sense, quite obvious, especially now that we’ve seen the lessons of decades of women’s ordination in the Protestant denominations, but they can only be spoken out loud by a woman in her position. Maybe that’s why “why” is so little spoken of.
I’ve been wanting to raise a thread on what we have learned from women’s ordination in the Protestant denominations, and I’m glad I didn’t have to do it - this has answered it almost completely for me.
One I haven’t seen previously was #10, “10. A female at the altar blurs the biblical distinction between life and death.”. This expands (very well) on the objection that only a man can stand in “In persona Christi”, which is derided by the proponents of female ordination. Her reflections on the scriptural significance of “blood”, male and female, are very good, I think.
Once again, the Catholic Church got it right by just ruling that there would be no female priests, ever, and with the most basic of scriptural arguments. ( ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS, 1994, John Paul II).
I haven’t seen most of these reflections on “Why” before. From what I recall of the discussions we’ve had in CAF the discussions mostly reflect on the basic arguments about whether the Church teaching is “infallible”, whether it is biblical, whether it is “oppressive” of women, etc. There was even a long thread on “why” and I don’t recall much that was as simple and direct as in this well-argued document.
Still, most of these are, in a sense, quite obvious, especially now that we’ve seen the lessons of decades of women’s ordination in the Protestant denominations, but they can only be spoken out loud by a woman in her position. Maybe that’s why “why” is so little spoken of.
I’ve been wanting to raise a thread on what we have learned from women’s ordination in the Protestant denominations, and I’m glad I didn’t have to do it - this has answered it almost completely for me.
One I haven’t seen previously was #10, “10. A female at the altar blurs the biblical distinction between life and death.”. This expands (very well) on the objection that only a man can stand in “In persona Christi”, which is derided by the proponents of female ordination. Her reflections on the scriptural significance of “blood”, male and female, are very good, I think.
Once again, the Catholic Church got it right by just ruling that there would be no female priests, ever, and with the most basic of scriptural arguments. ( ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS, 1994, John Paul II).
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Edmundus1581
Guest
Agreed that this is “common knowledge”, and thankyou for the reference.njlisa:
I kind of thought it was common knowledge, but here is a HuffPost article that talks about the disparities among congregations (the linked article is supportive of female clergy):
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/religious-leaders-political-affiliation_n_593ed39fe4b02402687bc881
My anecdotal observation of the Anglican communion is that women’s ordination, as well as leading to “liberalism”, also leads to pre-occupation with “women’s issues” in the church’s ministry and governance.
This follows on from the author’s item #3. Women’s ordination is rooted in Feminist thought.
Good point.
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Kindnessmatters
Guest
This article appears to invent objections to which the author can in turn reject. Presented to sound foolish, these purported objections to female priests do not properly present the argument on behalf of Catholicism.
Others are making the actual arguments for a male priesthood better than I can.
Others are making the actual arguments for a male priesthood better than I can.
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Kindnessmatters
Guest
I should add…women have enough to do.
Seriously…ever since feminism went off the rails, we can’t live on one income, marriage is temporary, our kids are institutionalized in child care from infancy and everyone is exhausted. Weekends are for chores and errands, neighbors don’t know each other. I am not looking for more areas men take care of to be shifted onto women.
Cue outrage, but am I really wrong?
Seriously…ever since feminism went off the rails, we can’t live on one income, marriage is temporary, our kids are institutionalized in child care from infancy and everyone is exhausted. Weekends are for chores and errands, neighbors don’t know each other. I am not looking for more areas men take care of to be shifted onto women.
Cue outrage, but am I really wrong?
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yankeesouth
Guest
I think #2 is spot on. Jesus is the Bridegroom and the Eucharistic celebration is the wedding banquet.
Pope Benedict XVI speaks on it here…
Pope Benedict XVI speaks on it here…
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Elizabeth3
Guest
The author of the article, Alice Linsley, has an excellent blog in which she writes about her work in Biblical Anthropology. Point #10 in the article about the differing blood work of ancient men and women, is explained more in depth on her website. Fascinating reading.
A link if anyone is interested
jandyongenesis.blogspot.com
A link if anyone is interested
Index of Topics at JUST GENESIS
Just Genesis presents the latest research on the book of Genesis drawing on the disciplines of cultural anthropology, archaeology, ...
jandyongenesis.blogspot.com
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Just throwing this out there, could a homosexual orientation invalidate a priest’s orders?
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Edmundus1581
Guest
Point #10 also stood out to me as something I haven’t read of before, but also strongly biblical and coherent against women’s ordination.
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njlisa
Guest
@Edmundus1581
I am an unapologetic feminist. Feminism, in fact, informs my opinion about abortion as a terrible violation of women’s rights and dignity.
There are many problems that face women and children that should be addressed. I won’t list them all, but female infanticide, sex trafficking, and domestic violence are just a few of problems on my list of concerns.
I am an unapologetic feminist. Feminism, in fact, informs my opinion about abortion as a terrible violation of women’s rights and dignity.
There are many problems that face women and children that should be addressed. I won’t list them all, but female infanticide, sex trafficking, and domestic violence are just a few of problems on my list of concerns.
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