Good points. To be honest, sometimes threads like these turn into abusive men on one side, and non-abusive men on the other. I don’t like lumping men or women into categories. I stand by my statement again–we are probably more alike than we realize.
I’ve heard women pass their choices in can or can’t terms.
More often than women, but not always. Please note that pointed out a lack of decorum, a feminist will typically cry oppression by males, so either way, decorum or not, men will end up guilty if you apply that kind of logic.
Women are at least equally frequently guilty of the same. I tend to think that men are less likely to try to involve women in hobbies the latter dislike than the other way round, although I may be biased.
Replace “car” with “wardrobe” and shift “men” around with “women” and see what comes out.
Whoever yells, yells because he can’t get the message across otherwise. Gender doesn’t matter.
Must be some particular experience of yours. I don’t see it as a general trend. Don’t think ill of the enthusiasm of sharing news with people we care for. Women also do that, by the way. I don’t think this is in any way related to gender, maybe only that perhaps it may be a more visual thing and men are possibly more visual.
Will you send me to point #9 if I say that gave me a good chuckle, at least in the case of the parrot?
Nawww, unless you know a peculiar kind of men. We keep such matters away from our daughters and sisters, preferably also mothers, aunts and even lady friends.
I’m sorry to see that you must have had some disappointing experience, but please stop for a while and see how illogical that is. Do we have some redeeming factors or have women always been fooled by mental 14 year olds and never learnt from it?
Do women grow facial hair or go bald the way men do?Yup. Men’s favourite complaint is against “hints” rather than properly verbalised communication. Doesn’t differ much from what you talk about. Guess it simply takes some effort to express things properly instead of expecting others to read us.We’re all human…I think men and women have more in common than we think.
Apologies for any hurt feelings.
Yup. Basic kindness requires at least some of it, so much more should be expected between people who love each other.
I thought long about this answer, but I must stick by the original conclusion that while a reassuring reply would be in order, a lie would not be good in such circumstances. In so far as any answer to any question would be a lie (whether by lying about a fact or by stating one’s opinion as different than it is), that answer would take away from the person giving it. I have lied in such circumstances, it has felt horrible. And I do not believe I did the right thing.
)Yeah, but the truth can be told nicely. Contrast “yeah, you look fat” with “that might not be as flattering as that other outfit that you look great in”. Both may be true, but guess which one isn’t going to get you the silent treatment after a bout of tears?
Dude if you’re married your wife should always be beautiful to you, hardly a lie. She maybe nine months pregnant and carrying around some extra weight but still beautiful. My hubby isn’t 18 anymore, his hair is thinning, he’s gained some weight. Even when he just comes home from work smelling like the chemicals from his shop, and after sweating all day he is still gorgeous to me -it’s 100% truth, not a lie.
True, but I’m not a fan of blaming it on the outfit if the question doesn’t name it. Say, she asks if it makes her look fat. You can say she looks better in something else. If she insists on the “fat” part or if she doesn’t even ask about the outfit to begin with (“do I look fat?”, “am I fat?”), then the, “let’s talk about something else,” routine begins.Yeah, but the truth can be told nicely. Contrast “yeah, you look fat” with “that might not be as flattering as that other outfit that you look great in”. Both may be true, but guess which one isn’t going to get you the silent treatment after a bout of tears?
Rayne, pregnancy does not count as “fat” and a few spare pounds don’t either, nor do they preclude being physically attractive. As for the rest, a bald person should not expect “what a nice brush!” compliments and a person with a bit of weight should not be expected to be complimented on his silhouette. I understand the matter is sensitive and feelings are involved, but reason and facts are still there. As for, “your wife should always be beautiful to you,” that is fine if you mean a loving approach, but telling yourself something which you don’t believe leads to hypocrisy, as does professing something in which you don’t believe. Further, there is never any obligation to take untruth for truth, no matter the circumstances, or to force your senses to perceive something they don’t. Finally, if the question really concerned subjective feelings, it should be framed as such (“Do I look X to you?”). The way it is framed, it is obvious the answer is expected to be formulated as an objective fact (Without “to me”, i.e. “you are / are not X” is the default format of the answer and you are expected to come up with a way around it.). If this were a school test, it would be deemed an unfair question without a special clue to give a legible hint as to the right direction. This is seemingly a minor thing, but the problem is with principles here - there is basically a lot of bending and pretending to do. Where I don’t contend is that a kind and loving answer is always superior to dry answers. That I also believe.
In most cases, the question will be in jest, a “to me” answer or any other kind and inventive answer will be accepted and there will be no drama. The whole thing will basically be in a joke. But this is not a given and some situations are likely to get out of hand. My post is an answer to it getting out of hand. If everything were simply a joke and everyone knew it, I wouldn’t need to say what I did. And I realise that this does not endear me to anyone, but someone just has to say it sometimes.I don’t think you understand. I don’t think most women want their husbands to lie to us–we want them to truly believe we are beautiful. Even after a few pounds, even after a baby, even without make-up, even after 5, 10, 25 years. And we want to hear them say it like they believe it. And we want them to act like they believe it.
I understand, but an answer in only one general direction is accepted. The question is supposed to be about an opinion, but only one kind of opinion is good.
So do you want them to be convincing, even if they don’t really think that, or do you want them really to think that and act accordingly? There’s a lot of difference between the two.
That is correct, but if she is doing something which makes her less attractive (suppose this is a matter of dressing or making hair in a particular way or not observing a certain aspect of hygiene) and he affirms that she’s attractive and it’s not a problem, that will not induce her to stop doing what makes her less attractive. Contrary, she will be reinforced in thinking it’s all fine and continue doing it. That will help neither him nor her. It will also cause further resentment. If the same thing affects her health, it will also be somewhat injurious to her to affirm her in a wrong conviction.
Efforts should always be appreciated. One should not say, “you are fat,” but one cannot say, “no, you are not,” if the asker’s weight is significantly above the norm, and one should not be expected implicitly to affirm that either.
Yes, we don’t. Supermodels often don’t look that great, you know. But if we are fine with a couple of pounds above the norm, please be fine with our not thinking it’s a couple of pounds under the norm.
Both genders do.
The problem was not with her looks. The problem was most likely not with her at all. Both men and women are liable to the, “grass is greener on the other side,” effect and both are affected by want of novelty or inability to focus exclusively on one person.
That is true, but I do not think this issue has enough of an impact to cast men as villains in general. There are men for whom no woman is attractive enough and there are women for whom no amount of appreciation coming from a single man is satisfactory. This problem is not so gender-specific as it might appear.
**Good grief.Rayne, pregnancy does not count as “fat” and a few spare pounds don’t either, nor do they preclude being physically attractive. As for the rest, a bald person should not expect “what a nice brush!” compliments and a person with a bit of weight should not be expected to be complimented on his silhouette. I understand the matter is sensitive and feelings are involved, but reason and facts are still there. As for, “your wife should always be beautiful to you,” that is fine if you mean a loving approach, but telling yourself something which you don’t believe leads to hypocrisy, as does professing something in which you don’t believe. Further, there is never any obligation to take untruth for truth, no matter the circumstances, or to force your senses to perceive something they don’t. Finally, if the question really concerned subjective feelings, it should be framed as such (“Do I look X to you?”). The way it is framed, it is obvious the answer is expected to be formulated as an objective fact (Without “to me”, i.e. “you are / are not X” is the default format of the answer and you are expected to come up with a way around it.). If this were a school test, it would be deemed an unfair question without a special clue to give a legible hint as to the right direction. This is seemingly a minor thing, but the problem is with principles here - there is basically a lot of bending and pretending to do. Where I don’t contend is that a kind and loving answer is always superior to dry answers. That I also believe.
The reason I’m bringing this up is simply because of the principle.
I’m not telling myself something I don’t believe -my husband is gorgeous to me -always. It is not an untruth. I’m more attracted to my husband now than ever. My husband could be fat, bald, burned over 90% of his body -whatever and would 100% truthful because he is to me. I could declare it before the the face of God with a clear conscience. It is not an untruth. I am not pretending.That is beautiful. So, as we can see…love is not blind at all. On the contrary, it helps us to see very clearly, what is most beautiful and valuable.Good grief.
I have been very sick, a mess, with digestive issues that caused bathroom problems that my husband had to help me with because I was too weak. My husband has told me I am always beautiful him -even in those moments. I do not think he is pretending or placating me. I don’t understand how you think this is somehow a pretense. To me it comes naturally -it’s not forced, or made up. My husband *is *gorgeous to me.
We were not talking about your husband being gorgeous to you or not. We were talking about the “fat” question typically asked by women.Good grief.
And that is the point. You are not saying that he is not fat when he is or that he is not bald when he is. Similarly, I would not say a person were not fat who were fat (I would not call the person fat, I would just not offer a, “no, you are not fat,” answer).
Firstly, as in my first answer in this post: we are dealing with the “am I fat/do I look fat?” question. Secondly, the person still appearing beautiful to us is not the same as the person being or not being fat, which is the object of the question. In plain words, “you are beautiful to me,” does not mean the same as, “no, you are not fat.” I do not object to the former as long as it is sincere (this is not about you, this is about the man who attemps to answer the question we are talking about), I object to the latter when it crosses the lines of courtesy and becomes a flattering lie. In any event, I do not object to saying what I means. I object to saying what one doesn’t mean or asking questions which pressure the answerer into lying (whether in matters of fact or by stating an insencere opinion).
Experience comes at he cost of objectivity.aaaahhhh…says the man who is not completely convinced he should be getting down on one knee, and proposing some day…
**
LOL
You will be surprised at how differently you might view things, going from singlehood to married life someday.
**And you must report back.
Not currently being under the influence of romantic feelings, I am more able to see what the problem is with Hollywood stuff, romantic novels and certain mating customs. As I have already admitted, I have at times given in and said I liked something I have not (which means I under justified it or knowingly did something bad under the pressure of the moment), but this does not take away from my general judgement that it is wrong to lie even for courtesy reasons and that expecting a courtesy lie is wrong as well, or that questions should not be asked if an honest answer is not sought, and at any rate that people should neither make insincere statements nor be expected to. While chances are that I will, sadly, become more of a conformist, it is somewhat reassuring that given my experience so far I have only become more decided to stay a friend of facts and avoid making statements or gestures which say the wrong things or are not sincere. In this case it is a polite lie, in the previous one it was a polite empty gesture of feudal subordination, originated under dubious influence (Moors and mediaeval bards often at odds with the constraints of marital fidelity or premarital abstinence), which is popularly understood not really to entail what it manifestly shows but nonetheless preserved as a matter of convention. I trust I have laid my reasons well enough.