Territorial parish and pastor

[Gorgias]

Not what the poster meant. Of course you can always obtain your sacramental records from your baptismal parish, regardless of where you live.

Right.

The problem is, if Elizium23 asks the parish 600 miles away to send his baptismal extract and also vouch that he attends Mass regularly in a parish he isn’t registered at, guess what they’ll say? And then, if he goes to the pastor at the parish where he does attend (but isn’t registered), and (since he wants to be a godparent), asks him to vouch that he’s received your sacraments and attends Mass regularly there, he’ll likely look at him and say, “umm… who are you, again?”

 

[Phemie]

Right.

The problem is, if Elizium23 asks the parish 600 miles away to send his baptismal extract and also vouch that he attends Mass regularly in a parish he isn’t registered at, guess what they’ll say? And then, if he goes to the pastor at the parish where he does attend (but isn’t registered), and (since he wants to be a godparent), asks him to vouch that he’s received your sacraments and attends Mass regularly there, he’ll likely look at him and say, “umm… who are you, again?”

Not that my Pastor can vouch that I’ve received the Sacraments of initiation since no one is required to provide proof of such upon changing parishes.

 

[Gorgias]

Not that my Pastor can vouch that I’ve received the Sacraments of initiation since no one is required to provide proof of such upon changing parishes.

He can vouch for your assertion that you have; and generally, that is asked when registering at a new parish, no?

 

[Phemie]

He can vouch for your assertion that you have; and generally, that is asked when registering at a new parish, no?

Never been asked. It’s presumed that anyone who presents for Communion is baptized. Confirmation might come up at some point but I can honestly say that the question has not been asked in the 39 years since I prepared for marriage. I’ve moved 8 times since and belonged to 8 new parishes and was a godparent twice, a Confirmation sponsor twice.

 

[Neofight]

Perhaps, but that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t register at the parish within whose boundaries you reside! One day, you might need documentation (e.g., if you wish to be a godparent or confirmation sponsor, and need proof that you have all your sacraments and are a practicing Catholic), and if you simply call the parish where you “attend, participate, worship” (without being registered anywhere), you’ll find out – to your dismay! – that they can’t help you, since you’re not their parishioner!

Maybe (and hopefully not) its just a Franciscan thing, but I could NEVER imagine anyone at our parish telling someone "they can’t help you, since you’re not their parishioner!

Peace and all Good!

 

[Gorgias]

Maybe (and hopefully not) its just a Franciscan thing, but I could NEVER imagine anyone at our parish telling someone "they can’t help you, since you’re not their parishioner!

I don’t know that I’m suggesting “sorry, we can’t help you”, but in order to write the letter, they need to have some knowledge that you have received confirmation and are members in good standing in the parish. How, exactly, can they do that, unless the person is registered there?

 

[schaeffer]

When I was growing up, I was told that one must attend/participate/register in their geographical parish and there had to be a VERY good reason to do otherwise. No “church shopping” or choosing to attend a different church because one preferred the homilies there etc.

If one chose to receive baptism, confirmation, marriage at a different parish they had to get a letter of dispensation from the home parish in order to do so. Partly because some people liked to choose a fancier church to be wed at (and bring their own priest along) for photo ops. At least that is what we were told.

Quite a issue was stirred up when a priest from our church was reassigned and when he left for another parish many left our church to attend the other because they liked his homilies.

I think some of it boils down to practicality. Each parish has seating for X number of people. Has housing for X number of priests etc. If people start choosing where to attend etc, then one parish is left needing more priests than they can house, support, while another is heating a big church with the pews (and collection basket) sparsely filled.

If the sacraments are valid no matter where one goes, and the Mass and the real presence in the Eucharist is what matters most, then church shopping (without good reason) shows that one puts their personal preference over obedience and supporting their local Catholic priest and community.

Perhaps things are more lax than when I was growing up, but it was considered a serious matter at that time.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Unless you belong to a personal parish, a priest who is not your geographical pastor is under no canonical obligation to baptize your children, celebrate your funeral or your marriage or vouch for you as “your Pastor”. In practice that is often ignored but you can’t assume it will always be.

I can’t speak for every country and culture, but here in the USA as long as you’re registered and attending I can’t imagine a pastor who is going to deny you anything simply because its not your geographic parish. And if he did I can’t even imagine a bishop that would back him.

Our Pastor has printed in the bulletin that anyone who wants their child baptized in another parish needs his permission (we often prepare couples for Baptisms that will occur “back home”) and if they are bringing their child here from elsewhere to be baptized he needs a letter of permission from their Pastor. I know that previous pastors have not required either but this Pastor has a degree in Canon Law and wants to Do things right.

He’s correct for marriage but that’s simply for it to be licit, failure to obtain permission does not invalidate (canon 1109). For baptism I think he’s being a bit over scrupulous since canon law does not contain anything that specifically calls for permission to perform a baptism.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

And then, if he goes to the pastor at the parish where he does attend (but isn’t registered), and (since he wants to be a godparent), asks him to vouch that he’s received your sacraments and attends Mass regularly there, he’ll likely look at him and say, “umm… who are you, again?”

Depends. If the priest recognizes him then it won’t be a problem. But, yes, registration (and use of budgets) is the best way to ensure the pastor knows you attend.

 

[Neofight]

I don’t know that I’m suggesting “sorry, we can’t help you”, but in order to write the letter, they need to have some knowledge that you have received confirmation and are members in good standing in the parish. How, exactly, can they do that, unless the person is registered there?

Unfortunately, we (especially the US), are a very transient society. Gone are the days where we lived in the house built by our grandparents, passed to our parents, and ending up our own home to raise our children in.

A very real result, again, unfortunately, is that many cannot obtain “official” documentation of received sacraments…each year in our RCIA classes (which deals with a very diverse community of immigrants and military personnel), I would estimate that nearly 20% cannot provide documentation…as a result (I’m not sure if this is specific to our diocese, or is more widespread) we require an affidavit signed by witnesses of the event…I know in my case, when I needed my baptismal certificate that could not be located, my Aunt (godmother) and Mother wrote letters attesting to the baptism.

So, in many ways, I think the territorial aspects of parish membership has become outdated.

More important is that people attend, participate, and give of their time, treasures, and talents of any parish, whether tied to their domicile or not.

Peace and all good!

 

[Gorgias]

A very real result, again, unfortunately, is that many cannot obtain “official” documentation of received sacraments… know in my case, when I needed my baptismal certificate that could not be located, my Aunt (godmother) and Mother wrote letters attesting to the baptism.

Wait – something’s not right here. Your mom could’ve said, “I don’t remember the date, but you were baptized at St Ann’s in Lower Gotham,” and you could simply have called St Ann’s and asked for a sacramental extract. What’s needed isn’t the “original” baptismal certificate given to your parents at your baptism, but just the report from the sacramental binders at the church where you were baptized (and therefore, where all your sacramental records are kept). For immigrants, I can see how there might be difficulties obtaining this information, but for non-immigrants, especially in the U.S. and Canada, I’m not seeing how this is a problem…

So, in many ways, I think the territorial aspects of parish membership has become outdated.

In everyday life, perhaps. In the case of the sacraments, though (e.g., a child’s baptism, a couple’s marriage, First Holy Communion or Confirmation), a place where one knows he can go in order to find the required information isn’t at all “outdated”!

More important is that people attend, participate, and give of their time, treasures, and talents of any parish, whether tied to their domicile or not.

And yet, a parish is so much more than just a place where people attend worship services, participate in functions, and give “time, treasure and talent” – it’s your home! It’s your family in the Church! If we say “nah, that’s not important”, then we’re missing out on something amazing that the Church can provide!

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Wait – something’s not right here. Your mom could’ve said, “I don’t remember the date, but you were baptized at St Ann’s in Lower Gotham,” and you could simply have called St Ann’s and asked for a sacramental extract. What’s needed isn’t the “original” baptismal certificate given to your parents at your baptism, but just the report from the sacramental binders at the church where you were baptized (and therefore, where all your sacramental records are kept).

Sometimes there are reasonable explanations for missing records: flood, fire, etc. One parish I was assigned to had its sacramental records lost years before when the rectory moved locations. I’ve also, unfortunately, heard/seen of records that simply not well kept and all sorts of sacraments were never recorded.
And, of course, this all presumes that the parents actually remember which parish the child was baptized in.

 

[Neofight]

Wait – something’s not right here. Your mom could’ve said, “I don’t remember the date, but you were baptized at St Ann’s in Lower Gotham,” and you could simply have called St Ann’s and asked for a sacramental extract. What’s needed isn’t the “original” baptismal certificate given to your parents at your baptism, but just the report from the sacramental binders at the church where you were baptized (and therefore, where all your sacramental records are kept). For immigrants, I can see how there might be difficulties obtaining this information, but for non-immigrants, especially in the U.S. and Canada, I’m not seeing how this is a problem…

Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t feel the need to go into every detail, or compelled to apologize for the fact that I converted at age 56, my mother was 87 years old at the time, and on a lucid day was lucky to remember my name, or the fact that the church I was baptized in was not Catholic, and was leveled to build a freeway in Detroit, with the flock scattered around the city…

Also, those receiving sacraments in the Diocese of the Armed Services frequently have lacking records, because sacraments were received in non-traditional settings.

In everyday life, perhaps. In the case of the sacraments, though (e.g., a child’s baptism, a couple’s marriage, First Holy Communion or Confirmation), a place where one knows he can go in order to find the required information isn’t at all “outdated”!

And yet, a parish is so much more than just a place where people attend worship services, participate in functions, and give “time, treasure and talent” – it’s your home! It’s your family in the Church! If we say “nah, that’s not important”, then we’re missing out on something amazing that the Church can provide!

Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t feel the need to go into every detail, or compelled to apologize for the fact that I converted at age 56, my mother was 87 years old at the time, and on a lucid day was lucky to remember my name, or the fact that the church I was baptized in was not Catholic, and was leveled to build a freeway in Detroit, with the flock scattered around the city…

The trouble with legalism, is that life is not as black and white as you would like…happily yours seems to be!

I’m left wondering, that even though I was accepted into full communion by the Church, would you have told me, “go away”?

Peace and all good!