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pro_universal
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Can this “proof” be applied to the whole religion though?
Okay, what acts of Muhammad constituted terrorism?
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Eden
Guest
If any Muslim apologist can find anything in scripture or by example of Jesus Christ Himself that condones or promotes the sexual abuse of minor children by clergy, then we can talk about priests who molested children.
Until then, let’s move the discussion back to the terrorism and murder taught by Muhammed, which his devout followers continue to imitate today.
Until then, let’s move the discussion back to the terrorism and murder taught by Muhammed, which his devout followers continue to imitate today.
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THEKING
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pro_universal
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How about an example of the Father himself commanding genocide in the bible?
Or is the Father somehow not as much God as Jesus?
It’s funny. Everyone forgets the Old Testament whenever they want to talk about peace, but remembers it when trying to decide how to deal with “enemies” in war.
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pro_universal
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THEKING
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you are digressing here. The Father is revealed by Jesus FULLY. If Jesus did not teach killing, it means killing is not what God wants but what God allows. Quoting the OT is like quoting the beginning of the book without reaching it’s end. A question like this stems from a Muslim backround. Are you Muslim?
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pro_universal
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Some of the OT prophets specifically commanded mass killing and enslavement. Were they revealing God’s teachings, or are you saying that the Prophets were all phonies now?
No. I was Catholic most of my life, but I’ve now found it impossible to believe.
It’s ironic that you mention quoting…you quoted one verse of the Koran without quoting other verses from the same Surah that explain the context.
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Eden
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Has anyone provided examples of scriptures or of Jesus Christ Himself promoting or condoning the sexual abuse of minors yet? Or apologized for making such a ridiculous comparison to Muhammed and his terrorism?
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THEKING
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pro_universal
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THEKING
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demerzel85
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Those werevery specific instances that were only valid for that particular time and situation. There is ZERO indication that what was done can be applied anywhere else.
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pro_universal
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pro_universal
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The same is true for the discussion of warfare in Surah 9.
Why is it so easy to explain away wars in the Bible, but so tough for you all to believe that similar situations might obtain in the Koran?
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THEKING
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THEKING
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i was baptized recentlyi was Muslim
. I do not pretend to know a lot about Islam though. But marrying his adopted son’s wife and ordering suckling the adults after abolishing adoption blew up my head. Then after reading the Bible, i knew that guy had nothing to do with God. What i said earlier must be known by you anyway if you traced the OT and NT revelations. As a side not, Muhammad talked about Jesus, which means he knew about the Messiah’s rule that must be followed till the end of days as per OT, yet gave a blind eye since it did not suit his agenda for power, respect,and sex.
go to Jalalain, click on “abrogation” and put the aya number and verse and you\ll get it.
My point is simple : why insert Jesus’ name in your book if you don’t follow Jesus’ teachings? he thought it will give him more credibility. No wonder Christians at his time called him an anti-Christ and satanic beast.
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THEKING
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because Muslims are doing it right now. And many Muslim cheikh condone it as a war against the “crusaders” as we were always taught. All Jews know it was temporary, but millions of Muslims do not .
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Eden
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Let’s look at this idea of abrogation.
In the Quran, the peaceful Mecca period is abrogated by the later violent Medinan period.
Conversely, the Old Testament is fulfilled by the New Testament. But in this case, we see the progression from a God that is sometimes vengeful or angry to a God, once we are reconciled to Him through Christ’s sacrifice, who teaches us peace, humility, love and equality.
In the Quran, the peaceful Mecca period is abrogated by the later violent Medinan period.
Conversely, the Old Testament is fulfilled by the New Testament. But in this case, we see the progression from a God that is sometimes vengeful or angry to a God, once we are reconciled to Him through Christ’s sacrifice, who teaches us peace, humility, love and equality.
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THEKING
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well abrogation in Quran was another block for me…if you read about souras which have Nasikh, souras with mansoukh, and souras with both, it forms 60% of the Quran !! how can a rational human being believe that an all-knowing God changed his mind that often is beyond me…worse yet, Allah changed his mind only when humans like Umar or a disabled man ecc asked for it , as if Allah needed a reminder !!
the Bible is different : it was an old covenant and a new covenant as per OT and not changing and deleting things within 23 years!
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Rodrigo_Bivar
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pro said:
Maududi:
The first discourse (vv. 1-37), was revealed in Zil-Qa’adah A. H. 9 or thereabout. As the importance of the subject of the discourse required its declaration on the occasion of Haj the Holy Prophet despatched Hadrat Ali to follow Hadrat Abu Bakr, who had already left for Makkah as leader of the Pilgrims to the Ka’abah. He instructed Hadrat Ali to deliver the discourse before the representatives of the different clans of Arabia so as to inform them of the new policy towards the mushriks.
Ibn Kathir:
The first part of this honorable Surah was revealed to the Messenger of Allah when he returned from the battle of Tabuk, during the Hajj season, which the Prophet thought about attending. But he remembered that the idolators would still attend that Hajj, as was usual in past years, and that they perform Tawaf around the House while naked. He disliked to associate with them and sent Abu Bakr As-Siddiq, may Allah be pleased with him, to lead Hajj that year and show the people their rituals, commanding him to inform the idolators that they would not be allowed to participate in Hajj after that season. He commanded him to proclaim,
﴿بَرَآءَةٌ مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ﴾
(Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger ()…), to the people. When Abu Bakr had left, the Messenger sent `Ali bin Abu Talib to be the one to deliver this news to the idolators on behalf of the Messenger , for he was the Messenger’s cousin. We will mention this story later.
This event of revelation is also told in the sahih hadiths of Muslim and Bukhari, eg.:
Sahih Bukhari 6:60:179
Narrated Humaid bin Abdur Rahman: Abu Huraira said, "Abu Bakr sent me in that Hajj in which he was the chief of the pilgrims along with the announcers whom he sent on the Day of Nahr to announce at Mina: “No pagan shall perform Hajj after this year, and none shall perform the Tawaf around the Ka’ba in a naked state.” Humaid added: That the Prophet sent 'Ali bin Abi Talib (after Abu Bakr) and ordered him to recite aloud in public Surat-Baraa. Abu Huraira added, “So 'Ali, along with us, recited Bara’a (loudly) before the people at Mina on the Day of Nahr and announced “No pagan shall perform Hajj after this year and none shall perform the Tawaf around the Ka’ba in a naked state.”…except those pagans with whom you (Muslims) have a treaty.” (9.4)
Muhammad conquered Mecca in Ramadan 8AH, Hunain a month later, and Tabuk in Rajab A. H. 9. Thus, by all accounts Surah 9 (including 9:29) was revealed AFTER Muhammad had conquered Arabia.
What is this nonsense about the surah being revealed as self-defense against people who violated treaties and attacked the Muslims? By the time this surah was revealed, the pagans were already defeated. There were no more enemies fighting the Muslims in Arabia as the last pagan military force was defeated at Hunain and Taif. Following the Tabuk campaign, the rest of Arabia, including Yemen in the south, capitulated and submitted to Muhammad – some converted, some accepted dhimmitude, but what Muhammad wanted was to abrogated all treaties he had made in the past, except for that he made with the Banu Damra (which had only nine more months to go) and attack all the remaining polytheists. By doing so he brought the entire Arabian Peninsula within his sway.
The first part of Surah 9 was an unilateral declaration of war against all disbelievers.
cont.
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