Terrorism Is Alien to Islam

[Sufi]

pro, the only thing discredited here is you and Islam. Both say they aren’t in favor of terrorism, but both support terrorist groups like hezbullah and hamas. I visited NYC this weekend. Saw the WTC site. On Sunday the Church I went to for Mass had armed police outside. I asked why. They said because of the Muslims. That says it all. Go to Church in the USA and you have to be guarded because of the threat of Islamic violence.

YOU ARE A LIAR!!!
I am a officer of the law here in NY and I have worked on that project. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY ‘MUSLIMS’ DID IT. So shut up and speak the truth.

I visit chruches and not one I’ve seen been guarded by none other than ushers and collectiopn plate boys and girls. YOU LIAR!

 

[Sufi]

You are being silly. I don’t need to speak fluent Arabic - I have friends who do, and I do have records of discussions on various issues between Arabic speakers. I just have to go to my catalogue and pull out my references.

And I do know certain Arabic words - for instance.

wa = and
taAAanoo = assail (see below)
deen = religion (deenikum = your religion)

Tay-Ayn-Nun = to thrust, defame/discredit, to speak ill of someone, traducing, assail, revile, scoff, pierce, spear, wound, calumniate. studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Lane’s Lexicon - thrust, pierce, spear, attack, reproach, censure, blame,

studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000140.pdf
studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000141.pdf

so wataAAanoo fee deenikum means and assail (in) your religion.

How difficult is that? Why would anyone need to be a master at classical Arabic to know this? Besides, I love it when the Arabic masters like Imam al-Suyuti and Imam Ibn Kathir prove me right.

In this case, I do know for sure that surah 9 does not say what you claim it says - that it is only permissible to fight those who attack you.

Look at my example which you have mis-interpreted yet again.

9:12 says to fight those who attack YOUR RELIGION, not YOU.

There is a difference.

You claim you bolded the relevant part. How did you miss this? Let me bold that for you.

And if they break their oaths after their agreement and REVILE YOUR RELIGION, then fight the leaders of disbelief – surely their oaths are nothing – so that they may desist.

See that part which says ‘REVILE YOUR RELIGION’? It doesn’t say ‘attack you’. It says ‘REVILE YOUR RELIGION’. Thus proving me correct and you wrong, yet again.

Hasta la vista, baby,
Rodrigo

Wa 'In Nakathū 'Aymānahum Min Badi Ahdihim Wa Ţaanū Fī Dīnikum Faqātilū 'A'immata Al-Kufri 'Innahum Lā 'Aymāna Lahum Laallahum Yantahūna

But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish - pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions). (At-Tawbah 9:12)

وَإِنْ نَكَثُوا أَيْمَانَهُمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ عَهْدِهِمْ وَطَعَنُوا فِي دِينِكُمْ فَقَاتِلُوا أَئِمَّةَ الْكُفْرِ إِنَّهُمْ لاَ أَيْمَانَ لَهُمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَنتَهُونَ

Here we see that this verse was talking about the Quarish who used to constantly attack the Muslims for none other than that they say “AHAD” “God is One”.

Islam is a religion of peace. This does not mean that we are going to sit down and allow people to attack us and kill us off.

 

[MrS]

and who praytell is is attacking you to kill you off??

.

 

[pro_universal]

and who praytell is is attacking you to kill you off??

.

MrS,

How many people have died in Iraq?

How many people have died in Afghanistan?

How many people have died in Palestine?

Where do the most brutal dictatorships get their funds and weapons?

Answer those and you’ll see what he’s talking about.

 

[Eden]

YOU ARE A LIAR!!!
I am a officer of the law here in NY and I have worked on that project. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY ‘MUSLIMS’ DID IT. So shut up and speak the truth.

I visit chruches and not one I’ve seen been guarded by none other than ushers and collectiopn plate boys and girls. YOU LIAR!

Firstly, what “project” are you speaking about that you “worked on”? Secondly, please lower your tone. Capital letters and multiple exclamation points do not make you any more credible in your denials that Islam is not violent, as using capital letters and numerous exclamation points is equivalent to shouting on message boards. Thirdly, for what reason were you going to churches and checking to see if they are guarded?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Wa 'In Nakathū 'Aymānahum Min Badi Ahdihim Wa Ţaanū Fī Dīnikum Faqātilū 'A'immata Al-Kufri 'Innahum Lā 'Aymāna Lahum Laallahum Yantahūna

But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish - pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions). (At-Tawbah 9:12)

وَإِنْ نَكَثُوا أَيْمَانَهُمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ عَهْدِهِمْ وَطَعَنُوا فِي دِينِكُمْ فَقَاتِلُوا أَئِمَّةَ الْكُفْرِ إِنَّهُمْ لاَ أَيْمَانَ لَهُمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَنتَهُونَ

Here we see that this verse was talking about the Quarish who used to constantly attack the Muslims for none other than that they say “AHAD” “God is One”.

Islam is a religion of peace. This does not mean that we are going to sit down and allow people to attack us and kill us off.

Please don’t quote out of context. Maududi and Ibn Kathir said that surah 9 was revealed after Muhammad returned from Tabuk. By then the Quraysh were a spent military force - they, in fact, capitulated without a struggle during the conquest of Mecca about 14 months before surah 9 was revealed.

The verse talks about ‘killing’ those who:

1. violate their oaths - these oaths are the oaths of surrender. Muslims always claim that these are peace treaties but they are not - they are the covenants of surrender - i.e. dhimmitude.
2. attack your religion with disapproval and criticism - this is just being critical of Islam and Muhammad - it is not a physical attack.
3. The verse does not mention the Quraysh - it just says ‘leaders of disbelief’. The phrase is ‘faqatiloo a-immata alkufri’ - so fight/kill the leader (immata = imam or leader) of the disbelievers’.

This is not peace by any means because the historical context shows that the Quraysh or any other disbelievers were no longer fighting the Muslims at that time.

In a sense, this is the theological basis for the Muslims threatening to kill Pope Benedict XVI for ‘insulting’ Islam. That is why when he quoted the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus he was threatened with death.

Chau,
Rodrigo

 

[cestusdei]

I see pro is still defending the terrorists. Hezbullah is on the State Departments list of terrorist organizations. They have committed terrorist acts against civilians. Right now Iran seems to be the one funding terrorism. It is interesting that he is against Hiroshima’s bombing, but not against bombing against US.

 

[thistle]

YOU ARE A LIAR!!!
I am a officer of the law here in NY and I have worked on that project. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY ‘MUSLIMS’ DID IT. So shut up and speak the truth.

I visit chruches and not one I’ve seen been guarded by none other than ushers and collectiopn plate boys and girls. YOU LIAR!

I’m not American so I don’t know what project you are talking about but one thing is for sure and that is it was Muslims who attacked the twin towers and killed 3000+ innocent people!!

 

[fin]

YOU ARE A LIAR!!!
I am a officer of the law here in NY and I have worked on that project. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY ‘MUSLIMS’ DID IT. So shut up and speak the truth.

I visit chruches and not one I’ve seen been guarded by none other than ushers and collectiopn plate boys and girls. YOU LIAR!

Sufi, you said ISLAM is a religion of PEACE.

With the way you are TALKING(or TYPING) here, are YOU being PEAceful?

i bet that you CAN’T answer the question.

tsk, tsk…too bad

 

[pro_universal]

Folks, you need to reread Sufi’s post.

Cestusdei claimed that Churches in NYC are under threat from Muslims, and being guarded by the police.

Sufi is an Officer of the Law in NYC, and knows for a fact that cestusdei is lying about this program.

I believe him, because I also know for a fact that cestusdei has lied about my positions. For example, he repeatedly accuses me of supporting the 9/11 attacking among others. That is a lie.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Firstly, for the NYPD (I assume that to be the case) to not be allowed to say ‘Muslims did it’ is political correctness gone wild. Of course the Muslims did 9/11.

As for a church being protected by police, this is not a lie as the police have the responsibility to protect both lives and property, including that of the church (probably to the chagrin of our Muslim friends).

Here is an independent anecdote of how the NYPD protected a Catholic Church.

Posted by: The Singer - Sep. 17, 2006 5:44 PM ET USA
This morning (Sunday) we had New York police ringing our Church. And I’m sure there were undercover detectives at the Mass, as well. The NYPD, the best and most informed police department in the world thanks to Commisioner Ray Kelly does not assign police wily nilly. They must have heard or sensed that there might be potential trouble by angry Muslims. Thank God, nothing happened but this just goes to show you what could happen by the so-called tolerent and peaceful radicals of this religion.
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46515

According to this person there were NYPD “ringing” (unfortunate equivocal term) the church. I take it he/she meant the NYPD had police officers around the exterior of the church.

 

[cestusdei]

pro, you have lied about your religion and views on terrorism. I was there and asked the cops directly. But we do know that Muslims lie routinely about anything that might reflect negatively about them. Tell you what. Go to St. Pat’s and see for yourself. They are right out front. Notice too rods link that bears out what I say. We know who is lying pro.

 

[pro_universal]

pro, you have lied about your religion and views on terrorism. I was there and asked the cops directly. But we do know that Muslims lie routinely about anything that might reflect negatively about them. Tell you what. Go to St. Pat’s and see for yourself. They are right out front. Notice too rods link that bears out what I say. We know who is lying pro.

Why don’t you quote the language where I lied about my religion?

How about terrorism?

 

[cestusdei]

You are obviously Muslim not Catholic. You support Hamas and Hezbullah which are terrorist groups. There you go.

 

[pro_universal]

You are obviously Muslim not Catholic. You support Hamas and Hezbullah which are terrorist groups. There you go.

Hey look: no quoted language.

Why is that?

Because you know your accusations are groundless. I’m certainly not catholic, though, that’s right. And I can’t thank you enough for helping me to realize that I didn’t belong in the Church.

Your belligerence is a great way to show people how untrue it is that believing in Jesus makes you a good person who seeks the truth. If I ever want to show people what Catholicism can produce, I’ll be sure to link all of your threads.

After all, you are a Priest. What better exemplar of Catholic teaching could there be?

 

[cestusdei]

So I am correct, you are not Catholic. Also you don’t deny that you support Hamas and Hezbullah which ARE terrorist organizations. You have stated this before and defended them. Although that became harder after hearing that Rotarians were on their hit lists.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

How does the ‘officer of the law’ in New York City explain this?

emichaelharrington.com/2006/09/newt_gingrich_and_the_police_i.html

Blog of E. Michael Harrington, posted on September 3, 2006.

“I am used to police with machine guns (usually two police with machine guns) standing outside St. Patrick’s Cathedral on Sunday morning. The first time I saw that, a few years ago, I was a bit unnerved, shocked and saddened that life in the 00’s has gotten this way. Now I just expect it and know that these guys know how to not use, and use, these things. Today there was one police officer inside St. Patrick’s. That is unusual.”

“I think the pliceman and Newt were not coincidental but the actual embodiment of LAW and the NEW(t) WORLD ORDER.”

What? This independent observer is used to seeing 2 police with machine guns standing outside St Pat’s?

Could it be that this ‘new world order’ may have something to do with Muslim terrorists?

He must be lying, I’m sure.

 

[pro_universal]

So I am correct, you are not Catholic. Also you don’t deny that you support Hamas and Hezbullah which ARE terrorist organizations. You have stated this before and defended them. Although that became harder after hearing that Rotarians were on their hit lists.

Wait, how is the fact that I’m not a Catholic a discovery??

I had a whole thread started about why I left the Church. It’s three pages long. Let me link it to you:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=110009

If you want to take a look at why I left the Church and comment, do it there.

 

[tequilamac]

Wait, how is the fact that I’m not a Catholic a discovery??

I had a whole thread started about why I left the Church. It’s three pages long. Let me link it to you:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=110009

If you want to take a look at why I left the Church and comment, do it there.

I’m sure we are fascinated with your religious struggles. Narcissism is frequently held up as a religion yes, but it has a very shallow reflection and is actually considered a personality disorder, though. But maybe you could add some candles and make up some prayers.

 

[Eden]

St. Patrick’s Cathedral doesn’t just have police security. They also have a network of surveillance cameras.