Tertullian and others on the Trinity ? Help

[Zahava]

**Okay, I went to the libray section on this site and read what Tertullian and others said on the Trinity. With all said, please help me to understand **why the purported words of Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, clearly shows that he never said he was Gd or a part of God. Jesus spoke of his Father in heaven as his God (John 20:17), to whom he attributed superior authority, knowledge, and greatness (Matthew 20:23, Mark 13:32, John 14:28).

Jesus certainly was not equal to God, for he admitted…(Mark 13:32).

Furthermore, when experiencing difficulty, he displayed submission to God and prayed for help…(Luke 22:42).

Are these quotations from the Gospels consistent with the trinitarian claim that Jesus is in fact one in substance and power with God?

In Matthew 12:31-32 it is stated: “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in that to come.” Hence, we may reasonably presume that Jesus, if he is to be equated with the “Son of Man” (John 8:28), is not of equal status with the “Holy Spirit” (supposedly the third member of the triune god of Christianity).

In Matthew 20:20-23, the mother of the sons of Zebedee requests of Jesus that her sons be given prominent positions to the right and left of him in his kingdom. Jesus explains to her that such decisions are not made by him, but by the Father: “. . . this is not mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” Does this statement illustrate equality within the Trinity?

In Matthew 24:35-36 (see also Mark 13:32) Do the various parts of the Trinity keep secrets from each other? How can the Father and Son be of one essence if the Father knows things of which the Son is ignorant?

Similarly, when asked if he would “at this time” restore the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6) Jesus replied: “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has placed in His own jurisdiction” (Acts 1:7). Are we to conclude that the “equal” partners of the triune godhead have powers and knowledge, which they do not share with each other?

Luke 2:52 Did Jesus, the perfect god-man, need to increase in favor with God, or shall we say two-thirds of God?

In the Gospel of John, Jesus acknowledges: “I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me” (John 5:30; see also John 6:38). Are some members of the coequal Trinity subservient, and less than equal, to other members? Even though they have different wills (“I do not seek my own will”), do they obey without question the others’ commands (“the will of Him who sent me”)? John’s Jesus admits to subordinating his own distinct will, yet according to the trinitarian doctrine they should all have the same will. Should one of the triune partners have to forgo his own will in favor of the will of another member of the Trinity? Should not they all have the exact same will?

In John 8:28-29 Jesus says… Do the members of the Trinity have varying knowledge, which they dispense to their other parts when the latter behave properly?

John 14:28 quotes Jesus as saying: “. . . I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” Is this coequality within the Trinity?

In John 14:31 Jesus says: “As the Father gave me command, even so I do.” Are we to presume that the Son has no authority without the consent of the Father?

In John 20:17, John’s Jesus recognizes that he is not the equal second partner of a triune god when he says to Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”

Other New Testament passages also indicate that Jesus and God are not equal members of a triune god.

According to Hebrews 5:8, the perfect god-man “learned obedience from the things which he suffered.” Why did Jesus have to learn to be obedient if he is God? Whom does he have to obey? Do the equal members of the Trinity exercise authority, one over the other?

Even Paul states: “Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:3). “You belong to Christ,” Paul claims, but he goes on to say “Christ belongs to God” (1 Corinthians 3:23). As man is subservient to Christ, and woman to man, so Christ is subservient to God. One who is subservient to another cannot be equal to that individual.

jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq050.html

Perhaps Catholics can help me to understand the above when my Protestant Sunday school teachers, Preachers, Ministers, etc. could not…

Please answer each verse.

 

[dosdog]

The Blessed Trinity
This article is divided as follows:
newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**Okay, I went to the libray section on this site and read what Tertullian and others said on the Trinity. With all said, please help me to understand /
In Matthew 20:20-23, the mother of the sons of Zebedee requests of Jesus that her sons be given prominent positions to the right and left of him in his kingdom. Jesus explains to her that such decisions are not made by him, but by the Father: “. . . this is not mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” Does this statement illustrate equality within the Trinity?

In Matthew 24:35-36 (see also Mark 13:32) Do the various parts of the Trinity keep secrets from each other? How can the Father and Son be of one essence if the Father knows things of which the Son is ignorant?

Similarly, when asked if he would “at this time” restore the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6) Jesus replied: “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has placed in His own jurisdiction” (Acts 1:7). Are we to conclude that the “equal” partners of the triune godhead have powers and knowledge, which they do not share with each other?

Luke 2:52 Did Jesus, the perfect god-man, need to increase in favor with God, or shall we say two-thirds of God?

In the Gospel of John, Jesus acknowledges: “I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me” (John 5:30; see also John 6:38). Are some members of the coequal Trinity subservient, and less than equal, to other members? Even though they have different wills (“I do not seek my own will”), do they obey without question the others’ commands (“the will of Him who sent me”)? John’s Jesus admits to subordinating his own distinct will, yet according to the trinitarian doctrine they should all have the same will. Should one of the triune partners have to forgo his own will in favor of the will of another member of the Trinity? Should not they all have the exact same will?

In John 8:28-29 Jesus says… Do the members of the Trinity have varying knowledge, which they dispense to their other parts when the latter behave properly?

John 14:28 quotes Jesus as saying: “. . . I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” Is this coequality within the Trinity?

In John 14:31 Jesus says: “As the Father gave me command, even so I do.” Are we to presume that the Son has no authority without the consent of the Father?

In John 20:17, John’s Jesus recognizes that he is not the equal second partner of a triune god when he says to Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”

Other New Testament passages also indicate that Jesus and God are not equal members of a triune god.

According to Hebrews 5:8, the perfect god-man “learned obedience from the things which he suffered.” Why did Jesus have to learn to be obedient if he is God? Whom does he have to obey? Do the equal members of the Trinity exercise authority, one over the other?

Even Paul states: “Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:3). “You belong to Christ,” Paul claims, but he goes on to say “Christ belongs to God” (1 Corinthians 3:23). As man is subservient to Christ, and woman to man, so Christ is subservient to God. One who is subservient to another cannot be equal to that individual.

jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq050.html**

Perhaps Catholics can help me to understand the above when my Protestant Sunday school teachers, Preachers, Ministers, etc. could not…

Please answer each verse.

I’ll try to come back if no one answers, but in brief your questions can be answered with knowing the “communication of the idioms” of the Incarnation: according to His humanity Christ had to worship (otherwise He would have sinned), increased in knowledge and stature (otherwise He’d be born fully grown), etc. The human nature had and did what is proper to it, and the divine what is proper to it.

 

[Hellisreal]

Tertullian was a heretic.

Check New Advent.

He was sane only for a short period of time.

 

[dosdog]

Tertullian was a heretic.

Check New Advent.

He was sane only for a short period of time.

Tertullian eventually began to praise celibacy and condemn marriage. In the end, he was excommunicated along with the rest of the Montanists He taught that the Son did not exist as a separate person in the beginning, but was begotten by the Father to accomplish the creation of the world

Montanism- , apocalyptic movement of the 2d cent. It arose in Phrygia (c.172) under the leadership of a certain Montanus and two female prophets, Prisca and Maximillia, whose entranced utterances were deemed oracles of the Holy Spirit. They had an immediate expectation of Judgment Day, and they encouraged ecstatic prophesying and strict asceticism. They believed that a Christian fallen from grace could never be redeemed.

Prisca claimed that Christ had appeared to her in female form. When she was excommunicated, she exclaimed “I am driven away like the wolf from the sheep. I am no wolf: I am word and spirit and power.”

The belief that the prophecies of the Montanists superseded the doctrines proclaimed by the Apostles. I can see why he likes them
education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/Montanis
newadvent.org/cathen/10521a.htm

1. Called by its followers “the New Prophecy”, this movement is known to us as Montanism after its founder Montanus, a convert to Christianity. Around the year 170 he began to proclaim to his fellow believers that he was a prophet, that he was the very mouthpiece of that Spirit which the Lord had promised would “teach all things and guide into all truth” (John 14:26; 16:13).

Montanus was soon joined by two women, Priscilla and Maximilla who like him delivered oracles in a state of ecstacy, speaking not in their own persons but in that of the Holy Spirit.
2. Montanus and his companions represented a revival of the apocalyptic spirit and announced the forthcoming end of the world. The Lord was about to return, and the new Jerusalem would be set up in the vicinity of the town of Pepuza in Phrygia. As preparation for the end of all things they purified themselves and cut themselves loose from their attachments to society. The Phrygians, as they were frequently called, fasted longer and more elaborately than other Christians and discouraged marriage.
theologywebsite.com/history/montanus.shtml

 

[Verisimilitude]

[Please answer each verse.

That would take time.

I will offer an opinion that may apply to many verses in a general sense for your consideration while I think about responding to each verse.

The Virgin birth sets the origin of Jesus in the Divine. By becoming man, God bound Himslef to the human condition for our (humanity) sake. God is not diminished or absent elsewhere while in Jesus, but is not truly bound by it though He (Jesus) submitted to it. Created humanity is not equal to God so that is why we say He lowered Himslef to us and why He spoke as a human, defining that human relationship to God that God wants.

While alive Jesus commited no sin. He showed us by example (read Gospels for details) how to live. He told us what our responsibilities are to God and other humans. The time had come to call the whole world and not just the Jews to be Gods People and He did it Himslef, in Christ.

God sent Himself again at Pentecost that we identify as the Holy Spirit.

Didn’t God show Himslef to Abraham as three men?

The nature of God is beyond human comprehension. The Catholic definition is not unreasonable.
[/quote]

 

[Zahava]

That would take time.

I will offer an opinion that may apply to many verses in a general sense for your consideration while I think about responding to each verse.

Didn’t God show Himslef to Abraham as three men?

The nature of God is beyond human comprehension. The Catholic definition is not unreasonable.

Thanks Verisimilitude, I will await your reply to each verse.

Actually, no, G-d did not show Himself to Abraham as 3 men.

1. Now the Lord appeared to him in the plains of Mamre and he was sitting at the entrance of the tent when the day was hot

RASHI explains:
And [the Lord] appeared to him to visit the sick (Tan. Buber, Vayera 1). Said Rabbi Chama the son of Chanina: It was the third day from his circumcision, and the Holy One, blessed be He, came and inquired about his welfare (B. M. 86b).

in the plains of Mamre He [Mamre] was the one who counseled him about circumcision. Therefore, He appeared to him [Abraham] in his [Mamre’s] territory. — [from Tan. Vayera 3]

was sitting It is written יֹשֵׁב [without a “vav,” and may therefore be read: “he sat”]. He wished to stand. The Holy One, blessed be He, said to him, “Sit and I will stand, and you will be a sign for your children that I am destined to stand in the congregation of the judges, and they will sit,” as it is said (Ps. 82: 1): “God stands in the Divine assembly.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 48:7]

**at the entrance of the tent **to see whether there were any passersby whom he would bring into his house. — [from B. M. 86b]

when the day was hot (B.M. 86b) The Holy One, blessed be He, took the sun out of its sheath so as not to trouble him with wayfarers, but since He saw that he was troubled that no wayfarers were coming, He brought the angels to him in the likeness of men. — [from Gen. Rabbah 48:9, Exod. Rabbah 25:2]

1. And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground.

and behold, three men One to bring the news [of Isaac’s birth] to Sarah, and one to overturn Sodom, and one to heal Abraham, for one angel does not perform two errands (Gen. Rabbah 50:2). You should know that [this is true] because throughout the entire chapter, Scripture mentions them in the plural, e.g., (below verse 8): “and they ate” ; (ibid. verse 9): “and they said to him.” Concerning the announcement, however, it says (ibid. verse 10): “And he said: I will surely return to you.” And concerning the overturning of Sodom, it says (below 19:22): “For I will not be able to do anything” ; (ibid. verse 21): “I will not overturn” (Gen. Rabbah 50:11). And Raphael, who healed Abraham, went from there to save Lot. This is what is stated:“And it came to pass when they took them outside, that he [the angel] said, ‘Flee for your life.’” You learn that only one acted as a deliverer.

were standing beside him Heb. עָלָיו, lit. over him. Before him, like (Num. 2:20):“And next to him (וְעָלָיו), the tribe of Manasseh,” but it is a euphemism in reference to the angels.

and he saw Why is וַיַרְא written twice [in this verse?] The first is to be understood according to its apparent meaning , and the second means “understanding.” He observed that they were standing in one place, and he understood that they did not wish to burden him. And although they knew that he would come out toward them, they stood in their place out of respect for him, to show him that they did not wish to trouble him, and he went out first and ran toward them. (This is the reading in an old Rashi ms.) In Bava Metzia (ad loc.) it is written: “standing beside him,” and then it is written: “and he ran toward them!” When they saw that he was untying and tying [his bandages], they separated from him. Immediately, “he ran toward them.”

 

[Montalban]

Okay, I went to the libray section on this site and read what Tertullian and others said on the Trinity.

What did Tertullian have to say? (I ask, because you don’t seem to quote him or these ‘others’ at all)

Other New Testament passages also indicate that Jesus and God are not equal members of a triune god.

And therein lies the problem with taking a sola scriptura approach to this matter, for I can find many passages to show that they are equal!

They are one
I John 5:7
“There are those that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one”

Philippians 2:5-7 “Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing.”

Jesus said John 10:38
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

They are of one accord
John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Jesus is equal to God
Colossians 1:19
“For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him”

Jesus has the power and wisdom of God
1 Cor 1:24
“…Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

Jesus is eternal like God
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

 

[Hellisreal]

What faiths deny the trinity now anyway?

JW, Mormon, oneness pentecostals, SDA’s, Jewish people, Muslims,

Do we have a list of all the anti trinity believers somewhere?

 

[Peregrino]

**Okay, I went to the libray section on this site and read what Tertullian and others said on the Trinity. With all said, please help me to understand **why the purported words of Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, clearly shows that he never said he was Gd or a part of God. Jesus spoke of his Father in heaven as his God (John 20:17), to whom he attributed superior authority, knowledge, and greatness (Matthew 20:23, Mark 13:32, John 14:28).
…

You have done your homework here. As a construct, the Trinity is crucial to Catholic doctrine. The Church has had 2000 years to work out the rought spots here; I am sure someone will have a fairly tenable answer for you.

How would Christianity look without a divine Jesus? Does Jesus have to be divine in order for Christianity to be “Christianity”? Could Christianity be the same by acknowledging that Jesus was the human, non-divine, Messiah awaited by the Jewish people? I don’t mean to side track the thread, perhaps after this one develops and some answers come out, I will start another.

 

[Montalban]

What faiths deny the trinity now anyway?

JW, Mormon, oneness pentecostals, SDA’s, Jewish people, Muslims,

Do we have a list of all the anti trinity believers somewhere?

I’m not sure you can appeal vox populi

 

[Bishopite]

[Zahava;2730439]why the purported words of Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, clearly shows that he never said he was Gd or a part of God. Jesus spoke of his Father in heaven as his God (John 20:17),

Go to verse 28 where Thomas says my Lord and my God. Isaiah 44:3 “Thus says the LORD who made you, your help, who formed you from the womb”
If we have only ONE creator who is only God and only Lord, yet Thomas calls Jesus “my Lord” and “my God” then Thomas made a mistake, yet Jesus did NOT correct him. Or Jesus IS Lord and God and the creator from the begining,
John 1:1-3
“In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.”

Jesus certainly was not equal to God, for he admitted…(Mark 13:32).

Jesus didn’t know in time, but that doesn’t mean He didn’t know after His resurection in which He again entered eternity. This does not disprove Jesus’ divinity.

Furthermore, when experiencing difficulty, he displayed submission to God and prayed for help…(Luke 22:42).

Jesus humbled himself from eternity and entered time, took on human flesh and was obedient to God the Father.
Phil 2;6-8
"…although He [Jesus] existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. "

In Matthew 12:31-32 it is stated: “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in that to come.” Hence, we may reasonably presume that Jesus, if he is to be equated with the “Son of Man” (John 8:28), is not of equal status with the “Holy Spirit” (supposedly the third member of the triune god of Christianity).

Actually, Jesus is making a statement here that the Holy Spirit IS God for only blasphemy against God lands us into hell.

In Matthew 20:20-23, the mother of the sons of Zebedee requests of Jesus that her sons be given prominent positions to the right and left of him in his kingdom. Jesus explains to her that such decisions are not made by him, but by the Father: “. . . this is not mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” Does this statement illustrate equality within the Trinity?

Sure, Jesus is using ancient Hebraic language of those whom are important enough to sit at the right hand of God the Father. And Jesus submitted Himself to God positionally.

Luke 2:52 Did Jesus, the perfect god-man, need to increase in favor with God, or shall we say two-thirds of God?

In His human nature NOT His divine nature, it’s called the hypostatic union, two natures one human one divine.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus acknowledges: “I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me” (John 5:30; see also John 6:38). Are some members of the coequal Trinity subservient, and less than equal, to other members? Even though they have different wills (“I do not seek my own will”), do they obey without question the others’ commands (“the will of Him who sent me”)? John’s Jesus admits to subordinating his own distinct will, yet according to the trinitarian doctrine they should all have the same will. Should one of the triune partners have to forgo his own will in favor of the will of another member of the Trinity? Should not they all have the exact same will?

Read Phil 2:6-8 which gives this verse it’s essential context.Col. 2:9,* “For in Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.”*

In John 8:28-29 Jesus says… Do the members of the Trinity have varying knowledge, which they dispense to their other parts when the latter behave properly?
John 14:28 quotes Jesus as saying: “. . . I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” Is this coequality within the Trinity?

In John 8:57-58 Jesus says before Abraham was "I AM’ making a direct reference that He is God because He was quoting Exodus 3:14 where Moses asks God to whom shall I say sent me (to Pharoah)? God answers tell him “I AM” sent you.
The Jews in verse 59 knew that Jesus was claiming to be God, because they picked up stones to kill Him, for as you know, Jewish law at that time was to kill anyone who committed blasphemy of God.

I will try to answer the rest when I have time.

 

[Verisimilitude]

**Okay, I went to the libray section on this site and read what Tertullian and others said on the Trinity. With all said, please help me to understand **why the purported words of Jesus, as recorded in the Gospels, clearly shows that he never said he was Gd or a part of God. Jesus spoke of his Father in heaven as his God (John 20:17), to whom he attributed superior authority, knowledge, and greatness (Matthew 20:23, Mark 13:32, John 14:28).

John 20:17, Matthew 20:23, John 14:28 – My first general response applies. Jesus is bound by the human condition.
Mark 13:32 – A nice way of saying He wasn’t to reveal all secrets of Heaven to the Disciples.

Jesus certainly was not equal to God, for he admitted…(Mark 13:32).

Not while in the human condition.

Furthermore, when experiencing difficulty, he displayed submission to God and prayed for help…(Luke 22:42).

Being fully human the divine knowledge of would not make the nails hurt any less. These words are recorded for our benefit, not His. Much like when He raised Lazarus.

Are these quotations from the Gospels consistent with the trinitarian claim that Jesus is in fact one in substance and power with God?

Yes, but it is difficult to get away from the human condition. Again, it is not that God is bound by it, but He allowed Himself to be fully human, and being so, that has certain natural restrictions.

In Matthew 12:31-32 it is stated: “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in that to come.” Hence, we may reasonably presume that Jesus, if he is to be equated with the “Son of Man” (John 8:28), is not of equal status with the “Holy Spirit” (supposedly the third member of the triune god of Christianity).

The Spirit is God the Father, and maybe to deny the mortal Jesus (Son of Man) is not a mortal sin in itself, but after His resurrection His divinity is equal with the Holy Spirit.

In Matthew 20:20-23, the mother of the sons of Zebedee requests of Jesus that her sons be given prominent positions to the right and left of him in his kingdom. Jesus explains to her that such decisions are not made by him, but by the Father: “. . . this is not mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” Does this statement illustrate equality within the Trinity?

Yes, if you keep in mind that Jesus is speaking for himself as it were…as God. I think these are things that God would not reveal for Hs own purposes, and this maybe was understood by the Apostles and therefore not pressed by them. It was not the purpose of Christ’s mission to reveal those things but the Good News.

In Matthew 24:35-36 (see also Mark 13:32) Do the various parts of the Trinity keep secrets from each other? How can the Father and Son be of one essence if the Father knows things of which the Son is ignorant?

I don’t think so, but I don’t know. I think there are some things that being human, being different from the divine has some restrictions about what we don’t understand to begin with. It doesn’t bother me that Jesus said that; not knowing something that the Father does know. Maybe He does now that He has risen and returned to the Father, and is One with the Father.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Similarly, when asked if he would “at this time” restore the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6) Jesus replied: “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has placed in His own jurisdiction” (Acts 1:7). Are we to conclude that the “equal” partners of the triune godhead have powers and knowledge, which they do not share with each other?

For that reason- it was not for humans to know. I don’t know, maybe it is along the lines of not giving information that could be a temptation to reveal, or like in the military when information was on a need-to-know basis.

Luke 2:52 Did Jesus, the perfect god-man, need to increase in favor with God, or shall we say two-thirds of God?

To be human is to experience it all to include learning how to read, learn a trade…He is doing these things so we can relate to Him- God.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus acknowledges: “I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me” (John 5:30; see also John 6:38). Are some members of the coequal Trinity subservient, and less than equal, to other members? Even though they have different wills (“I do not seek my own will”), do they obey without question the others’ commands (“the will of Him who sent me”)? John’s Jesus admits to subordinating his own distinct will, yet according to the trinitarian doctrine they should all have the same will. Should one of the triune partners have to forgo his own will in favor of the will of another member of the Trinity? Should not they all have the exact same will?

Human will is not superior to God’s will, and Jesus was human. Jesus submitted his own personal will to that of God- his own.

In John 8:28-29 Jesus says… Do the members of the Trinity have varying knowledge, which they dispense to their other parts when the latter behave properly?

No. God entered into His Creation as Jesus the man and this seems a logical way for Him to describe the in-describable.

John 14:28 quotes Jesus as saying: “. . . I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” Is this coequality within the Trinity?

It is the mystery of God being human.

In John 14:31 Jesus says: “As the Father gave me command, even so I do.” Are we to presume that the Son has no authority without the consent of the Father?

Humans are subservient to God, and Jesus was human. Kind of hard to get away from that point isn’t it?

In John 20:17, John’s Jesus recognizes that he is not the equal second partner of a triune god when he says to Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”

Answered once before.

Other New Testament passages also indicate that Jesus and God are not equal members of a triune god.

Asked and answered.

According to Hebrews 5:8, the perfect god-man “learned obedience from the things which he suffered.” Why did Jesus have to learn to be obedient if he is God? Whom does he have to obey? Do the equal members of the Trinity exercise authority, one over the other?

Asked and answered.

Even Paul states: “Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:3). “You belong to Christ,” Paul claims, but he goes on to say “Christ belongs to God” (1 Corinthians 3:23). As man is subservient to Christ, and woman to man, so Christ is subservient to God. One who is subservient to another cannot be equal to that individual.
I’ll have to think on that one some, but it shakes my faith not at all.
jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq050.html

Perhaps Catholics can help me to understand the above when my Protestant Sunday school teachers, Preachers, Ministers, etc. could not…

Please answer each verse.

Did any of that help, or did I stay up later than I wanted for nothing?

 

[Montalban]

What happened to Zahava’s Tertullian evidence? The threads about this, and I’ve seen nada

 

[Vincent]

Zahava,

Since Christians believe that Jesus is both God *and *Man, we would expect to find passages in the Gospels that describe his humanity, as well as his divinity.

Compare your objections with one of the Christian statements of faith, the Athanasian Creed:He is perfect God; and he is perfect man,
with a rational soul and human flesh.

He is equal to the Father in his divinity,
** but he is inferior to the Father in his humanity**.Many of your objections pertain to Jesus’s humanity, which Christians wholeheartedly affirm.

 

[Zahava]

What did Tertullian have to say? (I ask, because you don’t seem to quote him or these ‘others’ at all)

Tertullian

We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition but in degree; not in being but in form; not in power but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (ibid.).

Keep always in mind the rule of faith, which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (ibid., 9).

Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, “I and my Father are one” [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being, not singularity of number (ibid., 25).

The others … if you go to the library and search “Trinity” you will find

And therein lies the problem with taking a sola scriptura approach to this matter, for I can find many passages to show that they are equal!

Philippians 2:5-7 “Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing.”

Jesus is equal to God
Colossians 1:19
“For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him

Isaiah 40:25
“To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One.

Isaiah 46:5
"To whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?

Anyone that goes against what Torah / Tanach says is not to be believed.

Jesus has the power and wisdom of God
1 Cor 1:24
“…Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

There are a lot of people that have wisdom and power but that does not make them the Almighty.

Maimonides devotes most of the “Guide for the Perplexed” to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: “God is not a mortal” (Numbers 23:19).

 

[Zahava]

Thanks for all your reply Bishopite, I like what you typed below best. Protestants that tell me I am going to perish because I don’t believe in J should look at this again.

YOUT TYPED: Actually, Jesus is making a statement here that the Holy Spirit IS God for only blasphemy against God lands us into hell.

 

[St_Isidore]

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

The Blessed Trinity
II. PROOF OF DOCTRINE FROM SCRIPTURE
A. New Testament

Besides these passages there are many others in the Gospels which refer to one or other of the Three Persons in particular and clearly express the separate personality and Divinity of each. In regard to the First Person it will not be necessary to give special citations: those which declare that Jesus Christ is God the Son, affirm thereby also the separate personality of the Father. The Divinity of Christ is amply attested not merely by St. John, but by the Synoptists. As this point is treated elsewhere (see JESUS CHRIST), it will be sufficient here to enumerate a few of the more important messages from the Synoptists, in which Christ bears witness to His Divine Nature.

** He declares that He will come to be the judge of all men (Matthew 25:31). In Jewish theology the judgment of the world was a distinctively Divine, and not a Messianic, prerogative*.
* In the parable of the wicked husbandmen, He describes Himself as the son of the householder, while the Prophets, one and all, are represented as the servants (Matthew 21:33 sqq.).

* He is the Lord of Angels, who execute His command (Matthew 24:31).

* He approves the confession of Peter when he recognizes Him, not as Messias -- a step long since taken by all the Apostles -- but explicitly as the Son of God: and He declares the knowledge due to a special revelation from the Father (Matthew 16:16-17).

* Finally, before Caiphas He not merely declares Himself to be the Messias, but in reply to a second and distinct question affirms His claim to be the Son of God. He is instantly declared by the high priest to be guilty of blasphemy, an offense which could not have been attached to the claim to be simply the Messias (Luke 22:66-71).

St. John’s testimony is yet more explicit than that of the Synoptists.

He expressly asserts that the very purpose of his Gospel is to establish the Divinity of Jesus Christ (John 20:31).

In the prologue he identifies Him with the Word, the only-begotten of the Father, Who from all eternity exists with God, **Who is God (John 1:1-18). **

The immanence of the Son in the Father and of the Father in the Son is declared in Christ’s words to St. Philip: “Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?” (14:10), and in other passages no less explicit (14:7; 16:15; 17:21).

The oneness of Their power and Their action is affirmed: "Whatever he [the Father] does, the Son also does in like manner" (5:19, cf. 10:38); and to the Son no less than to the Father belongs the Divine attribute of conferring life on whom He will (5:21). In 10:29, Christ expressly teaches His unity of essence with the Father: “That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all . . .** I and the Father are one.**” The words, “That which my Father hath given me,” can, having regard to the context, have no other meaning than the Divine Name, possessed in its fullness by the Son as by the Father.

PLEASE NOTE TO ALL ON THIS THREAD:Rationalist critics lay great stress upon the text: “The Father is greater than I” (14:28). They argue that this suffices to establish that the author of the Gospel held subordinationist views, and they expound in this sense certain texts in which the Son declares His dependence on the Father (5:19; 8:28). In point of fact the doctrine of the Incarnation involves that, in regard of His Human Nature, the Son should be less than the Father. No argument against Catholic doctrine can, therefore, be drawn from this text. So too, the passages referring to the dependence of the Son upon the Father do but express what is essential to Trinitarian dogma, namely, that the Father is the supreme source from Whom the Divine Nature and perfections flow to the Son. (On the essential difference between St. John’s doctrine as to the Person of Christ and the Logos doctrine of the Alexandrine Philo, to which many Rationalists have attempted to trace it, see LOGOS.)
(The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XV. Published 1912. New York: )

**Consult the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA at your library, since there is much more text to read, other than the selected text you posted. Even easier here is the online link:

newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm**

 

[Zahava]

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

The Blessed Trinity
II. PROOF OF DOCTRINE FROM SCRIPTURE
A. New Testament

Besides these passages there are many others in the Gospels which refer to one or other of the Three Persons in particular and clearly express the separate personality and Divinity of each

St. Isidore, can you give source from Torah / TaNaCH of the Almighty being 3 persons?