Tertullian and others on the Trinity ? Help

[Zahava]

Did any of that help, or did I stay up later than I wanted for nothing?

You made me smile, Verisimilitude ! So, you did a chesed/kindness and did NOT stay up late in vain.

I will do my best to reply to those 2 posts.

 

[Zahava]

Zahava,

Since Christians believe that Jesus is both God *and *Man, we would expect to find passages in the Gospels that describe his humanity, as well as his divinity.

He is equal to the Father in his divinity.

Thanks, Vincent, but I and many other religious Jews would need the source(s) from Torah and TaNaCH that shows the Messiah as a dvinity. As far as I know, Torah teaches that the Messiah, will be a man.

And on a side note, I read in Torah what his role is to be. And saving man from his sins is not one of them.

 

[Vincent]

Thanks, Vincent, but I and many other religious Jews would need the source(s) from Torah and TaNaCH that shows the Messiah as a dvinity. As far as I know, Torah teaches that the Messiah, will be a man.

That’s certainly an understandable request.

Just to clarify, my reply was meant to address your first post, in which you presented difficulties between certain passages in the Gospels and the Christian claim of Jesus’s divinity.

 

[St_Isidore]

St. Isidore, can you give source from Torah / TaNaCH of the Almighty being 3 persons?

Follow the link that I already posted for you. Look under the title:
**II. PROOF OF DOCTRINE FROM SCRIPTURE
B. Old Testament
**
The early Fathers were persuaded that indications of the doctrine of the Trinity must exist in the Old Testament and they found such indications in not a few passages. Many of them not merely believed that the Prophets had testified of it, they held that it had been made known even to the Patriarchs. They regarded it as certain that the Divine messenger of Genesis 16:7, 16:18, 21:17, 31:11; Exodus 3:2, was God the Son;…The names Emmanuel (Isaiah 7:14) and God the Mighty (Isaiah 9:6) affirmed of the Messias make mention of the Divine Nature of the promised deliverer. Yet it seems that the Gospel revelation was needed to render the full meaning of the passages clear. Even these exalted titles did not lead the Jews to recognize that the Saviour to come was to be none other than God Himself. The Septuagint translators do not even venture to render the words God the Mighty literally, but give us, in their place, “the angel of great counsel.”…

In the Book of the Wisdom of Solomon we find a still further advance. Here Wisdom is clearly distinguished from Jehovah: “She is . . . a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God. . .the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God’s majesty, and the image of his goodness” (Wisdom 7:25-26. Cf. Hebrews 1:3). She is, moreover, described as “the worker of all things” (panton technitis, 7:21), an expression indicating that the creation is in some manner attributable to her…

(newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm#II)
Please read the full text in the above link.

 

[Zahava]

Follow the link that I already posted for you. Look under the title:
**II. PROOF OF DOCTRINE FROM SCRIPTURE
B. Old Testament
**Please read the full text in the above link.

ooops, I did overlook this

I will look over and get back with reply. Thanks.

 

[Bishopite]

Thanks for all your reply Bishopite, I like what you typed below best. Protestants that tell me I am going to perish because I don’t believe in J should look at this again.

YOUT TYPED: Actually, Jesus is making a statement here that the Holy Spirit IS God for only blasphemy against God lands us into hell.

I don’t know whether or not you will go to hell or not and it’s not my job to say so. God is the creator, He is in management I’m in sales.
What I meant by that explaination is that Jesus is making a good case for the Trinity as the Holy Spirit according to Jesus IS God because to blaspheme Him IS equal to blaspheming God.

 

[Bishopite]

[Zahava;2730439]
Are these quotations from the Gospels consistent with the trinitarian claim that Jesus is in fact one in substance and power with God?
**

You make an interesting point here Zahava, for many of our non-Catholic/Eastern Orthodox Protestant Christian brothers and sisters make the claim that the Trinity is perpsicuous in the Bible, however the Trinity isn’t explicit in the Bible; it is there but not in an explicit form; it is formed theology from the council of Nicea, drawn from Sacred Tradition and the Bible.

In Matthew 20:20-23, the mother of the sons of Zebedee requests of Jesus that her sons be given prominent positions to the right and left of him in his kingdom. Jesus explains to her that such decisions are not made by him, but by the Father: “. . . this is not mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” Does this statement illustrate equality within the Trinity?

In ancient Hebraic terminology to sit at the right hand of someone i.e., the King, was a place of prominence and is still in our day.
However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, Jesus in Phil 2:6-8 willingly humbled Himself as a servant to God taking on a human nature even though He still kept His divine nature (hypostatic union). In this passage in Matthew 20, Jesus is speaking as the humble servant of God, as an example of humility.
Jesus first explains in the begining of Mt 20 using a parable of the workers in the field, some work all day and some just a few hours, yet they all receive the same wage; what He is speaking of is again humility and what heaven will be like and HOW one gets there ergo it takes humility.
Notice Jesus says in chapter 19:30 saying the “first will be last an” and again says it in Mt 19:30
" But many that are first will be last, and the last first."
Jesus repeats this again in Mt 20:16 “So the last will be first, and the first last.”
To summarize all of this Jesus is NOT speaking of His inferiority to the Father, but showing an example primarily to the Apostles and secondarily to US. That’s what Jesus is saying in Mt 20.

In Matthew 24:35-36 (see also Mark 13:32) Do the various parts of the Trinity keep secrets from each other? How can the Father and Son be of one essence if the Father knows things of which the Son is ignorant?

Again, Jesus took on human flesh to die for us as a perfect oblation to the Father, yet He also came as a perfect example too.

Similarly, when asked if he would “at this time” restore the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6) Jesus replied: “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has placed in His own jurisdiction” (Acts 1:7). Are we to conclude that the “equal” partners of the triune godhead have powers and knowledge, which they do not share with each other?

Notice Jesus isn’t saying whether He knows or not, but that the Apostles didn’t need to know at that time, so your argument is mute.
Shalome

 

[Bishopite]

Zahava,

Luke 2:52 Did Jesus, the perfect god-man, need to increase in favor with God, or shall we say two-thirds of God?

In His human nature Jesus needed to learn just like us. As Jesus grew He was able to continually perfectly do what He had always perfectly done for the Father as an example to us. As He perfectly did more charitable actions in the world the Father was even more pleased than before, therefore the Father was pleased by the increase of Jesus’ perfect actions. A man can do many more charitable actions than a child would you not agree? So Jesus can do more as He “grew.”

In the Gospel of John, Jesus acknowledges: “I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me” (John 5:30; see also John 6:38). Are some members of the coequal Trinity subservient, and less than equal, to other members? Even though they have different wills (“I do not seek my own will”), do they obey without question the others’ commands (“the will of Him who sent me”)? John’s Jesus admits to subordinating his own distinct will, yet according to the trinitarian doctrine they should all have the same will. Should one of the triune partners have to forgo his own will in favor of the will of another member of the Trinity? Should not they all have the exact same will?

Why would Jesus say His judgement is “just” if He wasn’t God. Only God is just, right?
All of the persons of the Trinity have the same perfect will, but again in order to properly understand Jesus’ role you have to start by reading Phil 2:6-8 in order to understand what He was doing and how He was acting, which is as a humble servant of God.

John 14:28 quotes Jesus as saying: “. . . I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” Is this coequality within the Trinity?

Jesus is speaking of positional greatness; the president of the US is greater than I, positionally speaking, but we are both equally citizens of the US and equally human with the same nature.

In John 20:17, John’s Jesus recognizes that he is not the equal second partner of a triune god when he says to Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”

Jesus is speaking again as the humble servant as an example.

Even Paul states: “Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:3). “You belong to Christ,” Paul claims, but he goes on to say “Christ belongs to God” (1 Corinthians 3:23). As man is subservient to Christ, and woman to man, so Christ is subservient to God. One who is subservient to another cannot be equal to that individual.

The prime minister of Israel is the head of Israel positionally speaking, yet he is also a citizen of Israel, and he has a human nature as do all citizens of Israel and they have it equally. It is in this context with which Jesus is saying the Father is the head or greater than I.

Shalome.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

When Moses asked God’s name (singular), God answered three times. (Trinity).

Exodu 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exodu 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exodu 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

The three names are:

I AM THAT I AM
I AM
LORD

The last name is a re-rendering of an I-AM-HE-WHO-IS.
That is why the tetragrammon in Hebrew strikes out the
vowels such that ALL THREE NAMES become one vowel-less
word:

YHWH

Jesus, in the NT does use one of these three names when
he says:

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Amen.