Test All Things. A beautiful article on Pope Paul VI

[maurin]

www.ourladyswarriors.org/PopePaulVI.htm

Many times, I believe, I lose sight of the Traditional-ness of the Popes of the Council, and after the Council. This only adds to my own personal confusion: how could men who could get it so right preside over things which are so wrong?

Whether or not you agree with the question posed by Jesus Himself in the Gospel, “When the Son of Man returns, will he find Faith left on earth?” especially in these times today, it is difficult to deny the dismal facts: many self identifying Catholics deny the Church’s Teachings on Faith (witness the denial of hell by a Catholic on another thread in this forum) and the Morality which necessarily follows from the Faith.

I hope you’ll read the article before responding. I also hope we have a reasonable discussion.

Sincerely, maurin

 

[simple_soul]

www.ourladyswarriors.org/PopePaulVI.htm

Many times, I believe, I lose sight of the Traditional-ness of the Popes of the Council, and after the Council. This only adds to my own personal confusion: how could men who could get it so right preside over things which are so wrong?
Whether or not you agree with the question posed by Jesus Himself in the Gospel, “When the Son of Man returns, will he find Faith left on earth?” especially in these times today, it is difficult to deny the dismal facts: many self identifying Catholics deny the Church’s Teachings on Faith (witness the denial of hell by a Catholic on another thread in this forum) and the Morality which necessarily follows from the Faith.

I hope you’ll read the article before responding. I also hope we have a reasonable discussion.

Sincerely, maurin

*Dear Maurin,

All I can say is I am speechless. Thank you so much for sharing this.
In answer to your question, I believe the reason they preside over things that are so wrong is because we are more like the woman who is talked about in the link than we realize.
I so believe now more than ever, after having read this link you provided, that we so need to follow and try to understand our Pope’s leadership instead of always trying to discredit it because we “think” or “believe” we understand God’s plan for us better than they do.

Anyway thank you again so much for sharing.

 

[Waiting]

Thank you for this interesting, informative article. My nephew was ordained by Pope Paul VI. I was fortunate to be in the audience. I’ve sent this on to him.

 

[maurin]

*Dear Maurin,

In answer to your question, I believe the reason they preside over things that are so wrong is because we are more like the woman who is talked about in the link than we realize.
I so believe now more than ever, after having read this link you provided, that we so need to follow and try to understand our Pope’s leadership instead of always trying to discredit it because we “think” or “believe” we understand God’s plan for us better than they do.

Anyway thank you again so much for sharing.

Dear simple soul,

That may be true, and if it is, it may be incomplete. I can’t deny that His Holiness, in the most Traditional of ways on the one hand defended things such as COTT, while endorsing CITH on the other. Very confusing to me.

Dear Waiting,

A brilliant article indeed, and one which has forced me to widen my perspective a bit, not only on Pope Paul VI, but also his predecessor and successors.

Sincerely, maurin

 

[Victorious]

I had not heard this particular calumny against Paul VI. Comes straight out of left field.

There is no question that Paul VI made some really huge mistakes (the changes in the liturgy, and the suddenness with which they were implemented, being a prime example). Nor, despite his personal sanctity (which I am prepared to accept), can he be said to have been a very strong personality: at a time when the Church was under assault both from without and from within, this would have serious consequences, and I think he knew it.

But it is precisely through the weakness of Paul VI that we see that the Church is not a purely human invention. Consider the release of Humanae Vitae. This, in my judgment, is a moment in the history of the Church that ranks with Clement VII’s refusal to annul the marriage between Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon. In both cases, many prominent persons wanted and expected the Pope to give in to their desires; in both cases, weak men occupied the Throne of Peter; in both cases loomed the threat of wholesale rebellion and/or schism. And in both cases, the Pope did the right thing. How much easier it would have been for Paul VI – from a purely human point of view – to give in to the increasingly vocal and strident public opinion on contraceptives. Happily for the Church, the Pope was – and is always --upheld by Someone far greater.

 

[simple_soul]

Dear simple soul,

That may be true, and if it is, it may be incomplete.

Hi Maurin, I am not sure I follow. Do you mind trying to explain this a bit more for me?

I can’t deny that His Holiness, in the most Traditional of ways on the one hand defended things such as COTT, while endorsing CITH on the other. Very confusing to me.

*I guess I never saw it as defending one and endorsing another. I have always understood it as defending both. So I wonder…

 

[Lamafacaja]

www.ourladyswarriors.org/PopePaulVI.htm

Many times, I believe, I lose sight of the Traditional-ness of the Popes of the Council, and after the Council. This only adds to my own personal confusion: how could men who could get it so right preside over things which are so wrong?

Whether or not you agree with the question posed by Jesus Himself in the Gospel, “When the Son of Man returns, will he find Faith left on earth?” especially in these times today, it is difficult to deny the dismal facts: many self identifying Catholics deny the Church’s Teachings on Faith (witness the denial of hell by a Catholic on another thread in this forum) and the Morality which necessarily follows from the Faith.

I hope you’ll read the article before responding. I also hope we have a reasonable discussion.

Sincerely, maurin

I’m not entirely sure that I understand what the article has to do with the premise of your thread.

On the one hand, the article you’re presenting refutes out and out calumny against the Holy Father, Paul VI. On the other hand, you’re asking how the Church has come to the current state of affairs, correct?

 

[maurin]

I’m not entirely sure that I understand what the article has to do with the premise of your thread.

On the one hand, the article you’re presenting refutes out and out calumny against the Holy Father, Paul VI. On the other hand, you’re asking how the Church has come to the current state of affairs, correct?

True, I suppose, and I guess my starting off point were some of the Encyclicals, at least one on the Rosary mentioned in the article, and of course HV mention by Victorious above, that I have read of Paul VI. The article kind of jarred those memories of the utter confusion he continues to evoke in me.

 

[maurin]

*Dear Maurin,

All I can say is I am speechless. Thank you so much for sharing this.
In answer to your question, I believe the reason they preside over things that are so wrong is because we are more like the woman who is talked about in the link than we realize.
I so believe now more than ever, after having read this link you provided, that we so need to follow and try to understand our Pope’s leadership instead of always trying to discredit it because we “think” or “believe” we understand God’s plan for us better than they do.

Anyway thank you again so much for sharing.

Hi Maurin, I am not sure I follow. Do you mind trying to explain this a bit more for me?

*I guess I never saw it as defending one and endorsing another. I have always understood it as defending both. So I wonder…

Hi simple soul,

You said that maybe we are more like the woman at the well than we realize. I think it is more than that. On one hand Pope Paul insisted on the Traditional mode of reception. Under pressure from whole Bishops Conferences who were ignoring him anyway, after the fact he granted indults. That’s confusing and disappointing in any leader.

 

[simple_soul]

Hi simple soul,

You said that maybe we are more like the woman at the well than we realize. I think it is more than that. On one hand Pope Paul insisted on the Traditional mode of reception. Under pressure from whole Bishops Conferences who were ignoring him anyway, after the fact he granted indults. That’s confusing and disappointing in any leader.

Oh I see, I believe I can understand why I did not understand what you said.
We are referring to two different women.
I was not referring to the woman at the well but the assumed woman author in the link.
All I can say is that for myself, when I try to guess what others intentions are, I become like the assumed woman author mentioned in the article.

God Bless,
*

 

[laszlo]

Good old times, when people did not defecated to their nest, and believed to say for dead men either good or nothing.

 

[maurin]

Oh I see, I believe I can understand why I did not understand what you said.
We are referring to two different women.
I was not referring to the woman at the well but the assumed woman author in the link.
All I can say is that for myself, when I try to guess what others intentions are, I become like the assumed woman author mentioned in the article.

God Bless,
*

Where in the world did I get the woman at the well!?!? Funny how middle aged minds work, huh, simple soul! Sorry for the confusion. (I’m laughing at myself right now. Out loud!)

I see what you mean. Let’s see if I can respond to the right question this time.

I don’t think very many of us are as nasty as the woman quoted from the article. I am beginning to see how, in the face of outright ludicrous attacks on the “Conciliar” Popes, it forces me to remember the things they do which are also thoroughly and Traditionally Catholic.

Afterall, the great Archbishop Lefebvre continually taught us to accept from the Council that which is true, interpret in the light of Tradition that which is vague. There was, when you get right down to it, little which he rejected outright as incompatible with Tradition. It was the misapplications and misinterpretations that came after the Council which he specifically objected, according to my admittedly limited understanding.

So I guess that is an even better response to Lamafacaja’s question, than to yours?

 

[simple_soul]

Where in the world did I get the woman at the well!?!? Funny how middle aged minds work, huh, simple soul! Sorry for the confusion. (I’m laughing at myself right now. Out loud!)

No worries…I do not know that I can blame my middle aged mind when I do things like that and I seem to do it all the time…it is sooo anoying…
At first I thought I had read something incorrectly and had to refer back to the link just to be sure.

I see what you mean. Let’s see if I can respond to the right question this time.

I don’t think very many of us are as nasty as the woman quoted from the article. I am beginning to see how, in the face of outright ludicrous attacks on the “Conciliar” Popes, it forces me to remember the things they do which are also thoroughly and Traditionally Catholic.

I tried not being as nasty but failed at it misserably…
Someone once made a remark to me about how if they where the Pope they would do things differently. My first thought was well, so would I. My next thought was well I bet we all could say that. Then my next thought was, well…I guess that is why non of us are the Pope.
Besides, when I try understanding everything they do it confusses me too…

Afterall, the great Archbishop Lefebvre continually taught us to accept from the Council that which is true, interpret in the light of Tradition that which is vague. There was, when you get right down to it, little which he rejected outright as incompatible with Tradition. It was the misapplications and misinterpretations that came after the Council which he specifically objected, according to my admittedly limited understanding.

So I guess that is an even better response to Lamafacaja’s question, than to yours?

I really do not have any knowledge about Archbishop Lefebvre. Even though my family was briefly involved with the SSPX in my teenage years.
I never did learn much about the group.
But, I am very hopeful of the talks that are going on now with the Vatican.