Test the validity of your prolife position on capital punishment

  • Thread starter Thread starter jim_orr
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
pnewton:
The only problem is that the implication is that the death penalty is the sin to which you refer. That is what we are debating and you can not assume the point in discussion.
I may have been a little hasty in declaring it a sin. Like many people I struggle personally with all the nuances of this sticky issue. As I look through my thought process, I may have made the leap from “something to be discouraged” to “something that is sinful”. Personally, I tend to be against capital punishment…and I guess I’m guilty of interpreting Church teachings to fit my viewpoint (but aren’t we guilty of that to some degree?).
40.png
pnewton:
But you are right, we can not execute people just to avoid life sentences. In the state of Texas, one of the requirements for imposition of the death penalty is that the prosecutor show that a convict is likely to pose a continuing threat on society.
I’m sure you can tell, this is the single biggest issue for me, and I am totally in favor of the requirement Texas has. In fact, if all states that currently have the death penalty included such a provision, I would have no issue here at all.
40.png
pnewton:
The truth is I really am not convinced either way on the issue and have discussed it at length with three different priest. If the church would just come out against the death penalty in all cases, it sure would save me time. Until then, I’ll just continue to form my conscience on lump at a time.
I agree, the Church’s position does leave some leaway in which to form our own positions…and it would be easier if it were just a black and white issue. Then again, we aren’t a Church of robots, and I like the fact that we can think for ourselves. Besides, it would eliminate interesting discussions such as this, where I have learned quite a bit from you and the others posting on this topic.
 
Inside Pelican Bay Prison, Part 4

Mounds of mail spill over the desks of the three prison investigators who are assigned to monitor the contents of hundreds of pieces of correspondence flowing daily in and out of the complex.

Sometimes an imprisoned gang leader writes his directives in his own urine on the back of an innocent-appearing drawing before sticking it in an envelope and mailing to an outsider. When the urine dries, the contents of the message remain invisible to the naked eye until the recipient holds the paper to heat so its secrets can be revealed.

Or messages called “ghost writings” are lightly embossed with a pointed object on the inside of a manila envelope. The envelope is glued back together, and mailed with other documents to an outside contact, who rubs pencil lead lightly over the markings so the message can be read.

From these intercepted messages, investigators gleaned chilling new insights into the gang’s inner workings.

One ghost-written message from imprisoned Nuestra Familia leader Javier Zubiate, convicted killer of Joseph “Littlewolf” Lincoln in a Santa Rosa motel in 1995, asked a gang leader in the East Bay to travel to Sonoma County and kill a Zubiate rival. Another Zubiate message asked the same East Bay gang leader to organize a Nuestra Familia “colony” in Sonoma County.

Prison authorities acknowledged they’re unable to keep pace with the underground communications network that serves a rapidly expanding prison population. At Pelican Bay, a facility with an operating budget of $83.8 million and a custody and support staff of 1,317, a total of four prison investigators handle the task of monitoring prisoners’ communications.

“I probably sound like another government bureaucrat complaining that we don’t have enough staff to do our jobs, but it’s the truth,” said Pelican Bay Warden McGrath. “Just look at the numbers.”

McGrath is lauded by Sonoma County authorities for assigning Piland to work full-time with local and federal investigators who secretly probed the inner workings of the Nuestra Familia leadership during “Operation Black Widow.”

Brian Parry, chief of the state Department of Corrections’ law enforcement unit, said that a total of 40 gang investigators currently are in place inside the state’s 33 prisons to monitor thousands of gang members’ contacts with the outside world.

“We could use just that number alone at Pelican Bay and Corcoran state prisons,” Parry said.

During a three-year investigation into criminal activities of the Nuestra Familia prison gang, a special organized crime task force uncovered “hit lists” sent through the mail or delivered by prison parolees on behalf of gang leaders.

Targets included disloyal followers, gang rivals and even tenacious prosecutors.
 
So, what you are saying is that if we can’t fulfill our responsibility in controlling these people, they need to die?
 
40.png
demolitionman65:
So, what you are saying is that if we can’t fulfill our responsibility in controlling these people, they need to die?
While you put a spin on it worthy of a politician, you are essentially correct.

If the leadership of a society is unable to protect the people it has a moral obligation to protect by imprisonment alone, only then can it employ capital punishment to that end.

The duty to protect the innocent of society is a grave moral obligation placed on those in authority.
 
40.png
pnewton:
While you put a spin on it worthy of a politician, you are essentially correct.

If the leadership of a society is unable to protect the people it has a moral obligation to protect by imprisonment alone, only then can it employ capital punishment to that end.

The duty to protect the innocent of society is a grave moral obligation placed on those in authority.
so then it’s no longer punishment but self-defense.

seems a bit of a stretch to me.
 
john doran:
so then it’s no longer punishment but self-defense.

seems a bit of a stretch to me.
I didn’t say self-defense, I said protection of society. Self-defense is when you protect yourself.

If the police arrested a group that had committed multiple home invasions, killing the families as they went, do you not think protection of your town would be as high of a priority for you as the punishment of the malefactors?

Some Catholics, in harmony with section 2266 of the Catechism, believe that capital punishment is legitimate for punishment alone. I have a hard time personally this as a reason.
 
40.png
pnewton:
I didn’t say self-defense, I said protection of society. Self-defense is when you protect yourself.
it’s an unimportant distinction: it’s defense of some kind rather than punishment.
40.png
pnewton:
If the police arrested a group that had committed multiple home invasions, killing the families as they went, do you not think protection of your town would be as high of a priority for you as the punishment of the malefactors?
certainly. not sure what your point is, though.
40.png
pnewton:
Some Catholics, in harmony with section 2266 of the Catechism, believe that capital punishment is legitimate for punishment alone. I have a hard time personally this as a reason.
i believe that intentional killing is always wrong, and whatever the reason for it.
 
john doran:
i believe that intentional killing is always wrong, and whatever the reason for it.
Pacifism can be a virtuous position, but is not required by Catholic teaching. In fact it is a grave dereliciton for those who are charged to protect others to fail to do so, even if it involves taking a life. I know that in certain circumstances I am prepared to do so and will stand right before God in that action.
 
40.png
pnewton:
Pacifism can be a virtuous position, but is not required by Catholic teaching. In fact it is a grave dereliciton for those who are charged to protect others to fail to do so, even if it involves taking a life. I know that in certain circumstances I am prepared to do so and will stand right before God in that action.
i don’t think the rule against intentional killing entails pacifism; i’m certainly not a pacifist.
 
I am 100 % against abortion, euthanasia and the death penalty, always have been. The chance of executing an innocent human being is absolutely abhorrant to me. And I would pray that some of those in prison would repent and not lose their soul. If we execute them, they lose that opportunity.
 
40.png
rayne89:
I am 100 % against abortion, euthanasia and the death penalty, always have been. The chance of executing an innocent human being is absolutely abhorrant to me. And I would pray that some of those in prison would repent and not lose their soul. If we execute them, they lose that opportunity.
I understand what you are saying and I agree with you, mostly, but that doesn’t change the fact that according to Church Teachings only two of the three you listed are inherently evil.

The Church Teaches that the Death Penalty is ok in some circumstances. While today it is not prefered it is in no way against Church Teachings.

I think it hurts the pro-life movement to try and bring the death penalty into it.
 
40.png
pnewton:
Does any one else in this field have a dissenting view?
I’ve been working in adminstration for my state prison school system for 9 years now, and have the same opinion. Our security methods are simply not at the level of effectiveness the bishops and the pope must be assuming to come to the conclusion they have, and are not likely to reach that point in the near future. We had an almost successful escape attempt from Death Row here several years ago, one made it over the perimeter fence, though was already wounded and ended up falling into a hole ina creek and wasn’t found until he floated up a few days later.

The amount of money it would take to come up with a system that was truly secure would be cost prohibitive, and then we’d also run into prolems with Catholic teaching on how prisoners are to be treated. To truly be secure, there could be no direct contact with anyone in the outside world, all communications would need to be reviewed before being passed along, even communications with their lawyers.

OTOH, capital punishment is over-applied here, and in a way that has an aspect of unfairness to it based on one’s social class and race. But that’s not the reason the bishops are using to oppose it, so I digress.
 
Are You Going to See the Movie “THE UNTOLD STORY OF EMMETT LOUIS TILL”?

A Classic Example that Highlights the Issue of INNOCENT vs. GUILTY Deserving Death.


I believe it *opens in Theaters on Thursday, October 13th, 2005.
*
movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1808716851

The Emmett Till story in relation to Civil Rights is similar to Abortion’s relationship to Respecting Life in the Womb. To further explain the ties, please read this article…

illinoisleader.com/colum…view.asp?c=1222

Attached are pictures of Emmett Till placed in Jett Magazine.

panopt.com/photogra/withers/fulewtill05.html
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top