Testimony from a gay man

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antag

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Hi

I have been lurking on these boards for ages and ages now and this is the first time I’ve wanted to post. I know these topics are hard going so go easy on me.

I am a gay man. I am happy. I’m balanced. My life doesn’t revolve around my sexuality. I relate to people of both genders well. I have a wide circle of friends. I have a wide range of interests. I believe in God. I was brought up Catholic and I consider it my spiritual home…

So why am I posting here?

I am posting because I am constantly being hurt by the things said about me on sites like this.

No, nobody has actually said anything TO me - I only set up my account today. But I’ve read lots and lots of things on here, and all of them say things about me on the basis of one small part of me which people just can’t seem to get past.

So what if I’m gay? So what if I use a word that other people think is an indicator of a ‘lifestyle choice’?

I can tell you honestly that I didn’t choose this. I never made a conscious choice to choose to find men attractive instead of women. I can see beauty in women but it doesn’t ‘stir’ me in the way that beauty in men stirs me. And yet, I read so many people telling me on here that I made a choice, even identifying as a gay man is a choice and therefore a sinful one. I read people saying that I can ‘change’. Could someone please tell me how? I have often wondered how someone can believe that. I’ve looked at women. I know how procreation works. I know the process. None of it stirs me. I look at attractive men though and my blood runs faster… I don’t will it to happen. It just does. It’s cpmpletely natural to me.

Then I read people who say that my employer should be able to get rid of me just because of who I might desire to sleep with (even if I’ve never actually done so!). Somehow my sexual orientation is supposed to ‘rub off’ on someone else…

And then there’s all the statistics I see people post about how gay men are more dangerous around children. Well that’s not true for me - I’ve worked with children and I can tell people that not once have I ever desired harm for a child - it makes me sick to my stomach to even think about it. But I’m told that I’m a risk and that I’ll indoctrinate people into being gay…

How is it that God fearing religious people who are supposed to relish the truth and live in charity of heart, mind and soul towards other people are prepared to tell me lies about myself without even having met me?

I was brought up a Catholic by good kind hard working parents. They did everything right. I was a good kid. I didn’t get into trouble, I wasn’t abused by anyone, I was only smacked once as a child for being naughty because I wasn’t really a naughty child; I wasn’t pampered or spoiled but neither did I live in poverty. My parents went to church every sunday, I went and still go to church every sunday. I heard all the good things from the Church that you would have thought I needed to and still I ended up gay. Not through my own fault, not by choice, it wasn’t imposed on my by trendy teachers (I went to a Catholic school). It just IS.

So please, could people just step back and consider what they say about me? Because all the uncharitable stuff I’ve read on here has made me wonder why I should actually stay in the Church. Nobody seems to want me. So many seem to think that I’m deliberately rebelling against what I should be. That I’m denying my design or that by only wanting to find someone to love who will love me back that I’m somehow causing other people harm. Please tell me how that works? Tell me how what goes on in my heart affects someone else’s heart on the other side of the city?

Talk to me… tell me why I shouldn’t just leave the Church now? Because reading so many people here, if they’re right, there’s no hope for me, and if they’re wrong, then what am I doing associating with them in church in the first place?
 
  1. You should remain Catholic, because the Truth should matter to you.
  2. The Truth should matter to you because it is what truely sets one free.
  3. Bad behaviour by individual Catholics cannot change the Truth.
  4. So, if you want to be heaven at the end your time on earth, the best place to be is in the Church.
 
Hi antag;

Thanks for posting and for sharing.

I am sure you can appreciate that there is a substantive difference between saying something is a certain way and therefore it is okay. This sort of reasoning is known in philosophy as the is/ought fallacy. Just being or feeling a certain way doesn’t make it objectively good. I, for example, just am an addictive personality: I drink too much, I smoke too much. I just am that way. Every single one of us suffers from some kind of disorder in our nature: it’s what we call original sin in theology, a sort of original disorientation of our nature. You are right: you are born with it, and there’s nothing you can do about the fact that you are inclined toward sin. But we are all inclined toward sin, because we are all born with some kind of disorder or another, an inclination to do something that goes against our proper or due end.

People with same-sex attraction are called, just like everyone else, to strive for perfection. That’s why it’s a real blessing you are in the Church, because—as Pope Francis recently pointed out—one cannot know or find Jesus outside the Church, and Christ is our salvation.

It is wrong when people say hurtful and unkind things to people with same-sex attraction, just as it is wrong to insult or deride anyone for anything that they chose to do or because of the way they are. We are called to love one another, and I am sure there are a great many people on this forum who will extend to you a hand of love and friendship. But true love and friendship also means calling you to perfection, just as I would hope that you would call me to perfection and to travel with me along that road.

My advice therefore is simply, “Be perfect”. Follow the Church, because to follow the Church is to follow Christ and Christ is the answer to our humanity. And you are very welcome here: and so I would encourage you to stay here and seek the truth with the rest of us sinners.

Pax
 
The Church does not consider any person as simply identified with his or her sexual orientation. This is noted in this excerpt from a letter from a Vatican congregation addressed to Catholic bishops:

The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation. Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well.
Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a “heterosexual” or a “homosexual” and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life.
 
Antag, I PM’d you with a more detailed and personal message. Should be in your inbox.

Be yourself and love yourself - In this vast and ever expanding universe, filled with galaxies and stars and planets in numbers of incalculable measure, there is only one of you; so be the best you that you can be.

…And let your pride flag fly high, my friend. You’re beautiful just the way you are. Don’t be hurt by the words of others, no matter who they are or who they say they represent. You aren’t sick, you aren’t wrong, and God loves you. God loves us all. No exceptions.

Be blessed,
Casey
 
Welcome to the Forums antag:

I’m honestly not sure what I should say to you to let you know that you are loved as a person. As a Catholic Christian I know I am called to love my neighbors, and you antag are my neighbor on this forum. So here I am, trying to follow the example of Jesus Christ and love you.

I am sorry that you are hurting from what you have read here. I am sure that there have been many posts that were delivered in a less-than-charitable way, and I have no doubt they have caused you to wonder about the motives of the Church, and/or the individual poster. For any pain that I have caused by any of my posts, I offer my apologies. If my language has seemed harsh or uncharitable, please know that I had the best of intentions when posting.

Christian love is desiring for another person what is the very best for him or her. My intention is to want the very best for every person, including you antag. I have studied the Catholic faith for many years. My understanding of my Catholic faith informs me that if a person is living a “gay” lifestyle, he simply is not living in a way that is the very best. To the contrary, he is living a lifestyle that includes some very grave matter that - as I am taught can sever that man’s relationship with Christ and put him at risk of an eternity of separation from God. Coming from this perspective, I think it is a very loving thing to do to say to that man that he should think hard about changing his lifestyle and conforming his conduct to that which Christ - through the Church - teaches is the best course of conduct. That course of conduct is chastity, whether it is lived within holy orders, in married life, or as a single person.

I know that this may sound like a judgment against you antag. I know that this may sound like I’m telling you, antag, that you cannot “marry” (or be sexually intimate with( a man that you love. But I sincerely believe that the call to chastity comes from a God-given source of truth. And I am telling you this out of my love for you, knowing that my message may be rejected, and that my motives may be questioned. I am willing to accept that risk because, antag, I really do pray that you will live a chaste life so you will have the life that I believe God is calling you to experience.

Peace,
Robert
 
antag said:
Talk to me… tell me why I shouldn’t just leave the Church now?
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Religion, like most things in life, is not about feelings: sometimes the actual state of affairs on planet Earth hurts my feelings. I’m not being flippant… that’s a true statement about myself. But whether I’m sad or overjoyed or fascinated or bored or mad as Hell or frustrated or I cannot stop laughing… those things matter to Jesus Christ inasmuch as He loves us so much that he even knows how many hairs we have on our heads. But those things don’t change the state of matters… my subjective emotional responses don’t affect things. They’re just not relevant to what is factual.

Any person is susceptible to being deeply tempted by some sin. That sets no one apart from any other; there is nothing special about it. What distinguishes us is how we respond.

The Church is founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. Its moral and theological teachings are not subject to error. So Cristo Rey Himself promised us when He said that “the gates of Hell shall not prevail” against the Church. His promises above all others are to be believed.

In the Church you have not only the Truth, but the opportunity to receive great graces in the Sacraments. You even have the opportunity to eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God… to receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist. How can you even contemplate giving up on that? That is impossible to contemplate.

You are a sinner. I am one, too. When we sin in thought, word or deed we must seek sacramental confession to restore ourselves in God’s grace. We must strive our whole lives to resist and avoid sin. Maybe yours are harder to avoid than mine… who knows? I have a friend who was born without forearms: his hands are attached where his elbows should be. Some things are harder for him than they are for me. That is just the way of things. If someone told you that everyone is the same they must have been an intellectual. Nobody is the same; you can see that just by looking around. Everyone has a unique set of advantages and challenges. What is the same is our destination: the eternal and blessed vision of the face of Almighty God.

You don’t get there by sinning. You don’t get there by leaving the Church. You want to get to that blessed vision because anything less is misery for the human heart. You want to get there because eternity is a long time and the suffering of a lost soul must be terrible. You want to get there because it is what you have been made for all along. You were not made for sodomy! Just as you were not made for theft or murder (maybe you want to do those things, or maybe they are repugnant to you; objectively it does not matter as long as you strive to avoid them). You were made for friendship with God. But to stand in His presence is no easy thing.

You say that you are “a gay man”. I say that you are not. I say that you are a human being, a creature of God, who is made for the eternal happiness of the unmediated presence of God in Heaven. The Church and the Scriptures explain how it is possible for you to fulfill that destiny. That is why you should stay.
 
What you must know is Christ accepts you for who you are. And he loves you A LOT. You were brought up Catholic and should stay that way. Many have misconstrued views of the church and gays God doesn’t hate gays he wouldn’t have created you the way you are if he didn’t want you to be that way. Keep in mind my brother that Christ loves you more thanks anything in the world and God has a plan for you. May The Lord grant you peace and love. God bless.
 
Robert_in_SD said:
Welcome to the Forums antag:

I’m honestly not sure what I should say to you to let you know that you are loved as a person. As a Catholic Christian I know I am called to love my neighbors, and you antag are my neighbor on this forum. So here I am, trying to follow the example of Jesus Christ and love you.

I am sorry that you are hurting from what you have read here. I am sure that there have been many posts that were delivered in a less-than-charitable way, and I have no doubt they have caused you to wonder about the motives of the Church, and/or the individual poster. For any pain that I have caused by any of my posts, I offer my apologies. If my language has seemed harsh or uncharitable, please know that I had the best of intentions when posting.

Christian love is desiring for another person what is the very best for him or her. My intention is to want the very best for every person, including you antag. I have studied the Catholic faith for many years. My understanding of my Catholic faith informs me that if a person is living a “gay” lifestyle, he simply is not living in a way that is the very best. To the contrary, he is living a lifestyle that includes some very grave matter that - as I am taught can sever that man’s relationship with Christ and put him at risk of an eternity of separation from God. Coming from this perspective, I think it is a very loving thing to do to say to that man that he should think hard about changing his lifestyle and conforming his conduct to that which Christ - through the Church - teaches is the best course of conduct. That course of conduct is chastity, whether it is lived within holy orders, in married life, or as a single person.

I know that this may sound like a judgment against you antag. I know that this may sound like I’m telling you, antag, that you cannot “marry” (or be sexually intimate with( a man that you love. But I sincerely believe that the call to chastity comes from a God-given source of truth. And I am telling you this out of my love for you, knowing that my message may be rejected, and that my motives may be questioned. I am willing to accept that risk because, antag, I really do pray that you will live a chaste life so you will have the life that I believe God is calling you to experience.

Peace,
Robert
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What is a ‘gay lifestyle’?

Is it wearing pink? Acting effeminate? Walking in Pride marches? I don’t do any of those things.

You’re telling me I can’t marry someone I love. Well, obviously I know that… but why?

The bible says that men who exchanged natural desires for unnatural ones were to be condemned. St Paul said it. It’s in Leviticus. I’ve heard all that before. But the active word in that is ‘exchanged’. It means those men chose to do something different. It was a deliberate act. St Paul, who came from a strict Jewish custom, would have seen that deliberate act as sinful as it would have been a threat to the future of the Jewish race, as well as being a reflection of the hedonism of the Romans and Greeks lavish and lascivious lifestyles.

But i didn’t exchange anything for anything. I just have what I got. There was never a time when I wanted to be sexual with a woman. It’s only ever been men that interest that part of me. And while I’m about it, it’s not all men… it’s only some of them, just like my straight guy friends are only attracted to some women - just saying that in case someone comes back with the accusation that all men are somehow at risk from the lustful attentions of gay men, as if we couldn’t control ourselves!

So if the men in the bible were condemned for exchanging natural for unnatural lusts, what am I to think when the only lusts I’ve ever had are those that I experience for same sex? To me they’re entirely natural. I have to manage them as any straight man has to manage himself when he’s around women. I act honorably. I don’t whistle at guys in the street or make suggestive comments - I don’t do it if I know they’re gay! I am just as much a gentleman as any straight man should be.

It always comes back to what I am being condemned and or denied me. Can people see how uncomfortable that makes me feel around those in the Church who, if they knew, since I don’t wear it on my sleeve, would immediately judge me for something that’s as natural to me as their heterosexuality, even though they don’t wear their straightness on their sleeve either. I don’t judge them unnatuaral. I don’t deny them their desires and the chance at living in loving companionship with someone who means everything to them in their lives and hearts.

Why am I being condemned to a life of loneliness because of something I had no choice oover?
 
I am quite sorry you’ve had a bad taste from comments here. We are all loved by God, we are all forgiven when we ask for it, but are also called to sin no more. I have many faults. I have many impulses, that although socially acceptable, are only going to pull me away from God if I give into them. There is simply an unfortunate trend to believe that what is right or good by society is also right and good by God - this is simply not the case.

Greed is a sin, but how many people wish they were rich? How many glorify those who have an incredible amount of money?

Pride is a sin, but so many people want fame. How many people are really humble? How many people actually put God’s will before their own?

Sloth is a sin, but so many people do the bare minimum they think they need to.

Gluttony is a sin, but how many people eat way too much? How many people binge drink? Getting wasted isn’t loathed - it’s seen as what you’re supposed to do if you’re a fun person!

Envy is a sin, but how many people get upset when their neighbor has something good happen to him? How many get upset that he just got that nice new car?

Wrath is a sin, but don’t we all feel this? Don’t we all see someone offend us and just get angry? Haven’t we all just wanted to yell when the car in front of us does something bone-headed?

Lust is a sin, but it’s not at all considered wrong to sleep around with whoever you want. In fact, how is chastity perceived these days?

We all have a natural pull towards sin. I can say at times I’ve felt every one of those sins tugging at me, and it’s pretty natural for me to feel all of those. I am not hated because I have the natural desire to sin, but the sins themselves are to be rejected by every Christian.
 
Antag, it is admirable that you attend Mass each Sunday! Many of my catholic relatives haven’t seen the inside of a Church unless its Easter or Christmas. But that’s another topic!
I only want to add that you should receive the sacrament of Penance if you happen to engage in h. sex. You must be in a state of grace in order to receive the Eucharist.
 
antag said:
So I’m to be miserable and lonely then because I’m gay? Is that your meaning?
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Maybe you don’t have to be miserable and lonely at all. Are there only two choices? Is everyone called to marriage? People who are not married cannot fornicate either. Are they condemned to misery and loneliness?

Or should they think of their lives in another way? As an offering to God?
 
antag said:
What is a ‘gay lifestyle’?

Is it wearing pink? Acting effeminate? Walking in Pride marches? I don’t do any of those things.

You’re telling me I can’t marry someone I love. Well, obviously I know that… but why?
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Antag,

I am very sorry you have felt discriminated against on these forums; that is not what CAF, or the Church, is about. You are a human being, not a “gay man.” You are every bit as worthy of respect and love as every other human, and God does love you! You are called to be a saint, just like everyone else! 😃

When a person says “gay lifestyle,” they mean an active sexual life; in other words, that you are openly dating / having relations with another man or otherwise openly supporting gay rights, gay unions, and anything that is against Church teaching. From what you have posted, that isn’t you.

Having a homosexual orientation is not a sin. You cannot help that, as you yourself have said. What you can control is whether or not to commit homosexual acts, such as actively dating or having relations. Homosexual acts are gravely disordered, and are mortal sins. That is why you cannot “marry” another man; to do so would put you in a state of mortal sin.

I know it may seem unfair that you are not allowed to have relations with a man you may have feelings for, but that is your cross to bear. You are called to a life of chastity and holiness. With God’s help, you will succeed! Everyone has their struggles in life, but we must persevere to reach our heavenly home!

God bless you! You are in my prayers.
 
blaskoman said:
Antag, it is admirable that you attend Mass each Sunday! Many of my catholic relatives haven’t seen the inside of a Church unless its Easter or Christmas. But that’s another topic!
I only want to add that you should receive the sacrament of Penance if you happen to engage in h. sex. You must be in a state of grace in order to receive the Eucharist.
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That confession would not be valid if there is no remorse, or if there is intention to repeat the sin in the future.
 
I know we all have a tendency to sin. But when we do sin, we tend to know and experience it AS a sin when we’re doing it.

I can’t experience being gay as being sinful. It’s simply not there in me. I know the rules, certainly. But they don’t make sense. They actually contradict what my faith and the bible say. The bible condemns men who **exchanged **their desires and acted against what they were. They rebelled. I didn’t. I didn’t exchange anything. I didn’t rebel against my nature. My nature has always been this. And yet if I follow my nature, there’s nowhere for me to go in the eyes of so many people who say they are Christians. I’d hurt nobody. No damage would occur to anyone else. I would only be expressing my love for someone in an intimate way that straight people do in their marriages - except there’s no way that I can do it that people in the church will accept.

I am made in the image of God. God wants me to love him and to be true to him and to all the gifts I was given. I am told I must love/do unto others in the same way I would wish to be loved/done unto. Why should I deny a part of myself that only wants to express that love? Why am I not allowed to give myself totally to another person in the same way a straight person gives themselves totally to their spouse? I don’t care what that giving is called - marriage, partnership, bonding, whatever. What I can’t understand is why I’m prevented from doing something that is natural to me and harmful to nobody.

I can’t make someone else gay. No matter what I do or say, nobody is going to stop finding women attractive and start finding men attractive (or vice versa). I am not a threat to anyone. So why am I being told that I’m sinful if all I’m doing is loving someone?
 
antag said:
You’re telling me I can’t marry someone I love. Well, obviously I know that… but why?
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The same reason I can’t sail my sailboat down the highway - it is not possible given the nature of things. Marriage is not an institution by which two people who love each other give their hearts and lives to each other in romantic affection. It is an institution by which a man and a woman pledge their lives to each other for the purpose of creating a family unit that, God willing, will include their own biological children. Any other family unit, or any other means of conceiving children, only happens because somebody committed a sin and violated God’s law somewhere along the line.
antag said:
So if the men in the bible were condemned for exchanging natural for unnatural lusts, what am I to think when the only lusts I’ve ever had are those that I experience for same sex? To me they’re entirely natural.
Click to expand...
You are to recognize the truth that your sexual desires are intrinsically disordered, and you are to grow in holiness through the carrying of that cross. We all have disordered passions of some sort of another, and we all must choose to master them rather than indulge them.
antag said:
It always comes back to what I am being condemned and or denied me. Can people see how uncomfortable that makes me feel around those in the Church who, if they knew, since I don’t wear it on my sleeve, would immediately judge me for something that’s as natural to me as their heterosexuality, even though they don’t wear their straightness on their sleeve either. I don’t judge them unnatuaral. I don’t deny them their desires and the chance at living in loving companionship with someone who means everything to them in their lives and hearts.
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“Loving companionship” is not at issue. What is at issue is sexual behavior and sexual gratification. That is what the Church says may only be exercised within the vocation of marriage, into which you are free to enter but toward which you admit you have no attraction. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
antag said:
Why am I being condemned to a life of loneliness because of something I had no choice oover?
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You aren’t. You are choosing to equate “lack of permission to have a sexual partner” with “loneliness”. Marriage is a vocation, something to which many - but not all - are called by God for a specific purpose. It is not the default state of all adults.
 
I’m a single heterosexual male. I have desires that I can’t act upon. But I do not consider myself lonely. For many reasons marriage is just not in the cards for me. I accept this fact and try to lead a christian life.
 
It seems that many people have many opinions about a great deal of different topics and this is especially true when it comes to Church Doctrine, Rules, Regulations.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church has a fully developed legal system in place, the two primary things that differentiate it from other national legal systems is that it has it primarily relies on voluntary cooperation and it exists both in the real world and the spiritual world.

It is however every bit as complex as any other. We do not generally take lay peoples word for it when it comes to our national laws, we seek advice from trained attorneys that have spent years learning not only the laws but how they are interpreted by the courts. The exact same thing is true of Catholic Canon law. What may appear to some lay persons as fact, may in fact not be that at all.

Interpreting Canon law is a very detailed and complex task best left to the experts.

Do not despair OP, find a good Canon lawyer and get answers to your questions from someone with the training to give you correct information.

God bless you.
 
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