Testimony from a gay man

[antag]

We weren’t born yesterday.

I don’t understand?

 

[aemcpa]

They chose it in order to be what they wanted to be.

I didn’t choose it. I have it imposed upon me.

You don’t have anything imposed upon you. You are in the same default state as the rest of us. You are free to marry just as any other man is. It just doesn’t appeal to you. It doesn’t appeal to my brother either, even though sex with women does.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

What is a ‘gay lifestyle’?

I lifestyle that accepts sexual relations between persons of the same sex as not only tolerable, but normal. It does not require wearing pink, or any sort of affectation. But I would say that it requires the public affirmation, by conduct, statement or otherwise, that homosexual acts are normal, natural, moral, and good.

antag:

You’re telling me I can’t marry someone I love. Well, obviously I know that… but why?

Because as much as you may love them, that does not change the nature of what marriage is. And marriage does not extend to same-sex couples because it is an institution that is intended to unite a man and a woman to the children that they produce.

antag:

…But i didn’t exchange anything for anything. I just have what I got. There was never a time when I wanted to be sexual with a woman. It’s only ever been men that interest that part of me.

I appreciate what you are saying here. But that is not a good reason for changing the definition of marriage so that the institution loses its purpose of connecting mother and father to child.

antag:

So if the men in the bible were condemned for exchanging natural for unnatural lusts, what am I to think when the only lusts I’ve ever had are those that I experience for same sex? To me they’re entirely natural. I have to manage them as any straight man has to manage himself when he’s around women. I act honorably. I don’t whistle at guys in the street or make suggestive comments - I don’t do it if I know they’re gay! I am just as much a gentleman as any straight man should be.

I think you need to follow what the Church teaches, and life a chaste lifestyle.

antag:

It always comes back to what I am being condemned and or denied me.

I would tell a heterosexual man the same thing. Live chastely. I’m sure it would make that young man uncomfortable too, when he is told he cannot simply have sex with the woman he is attracted to. We are all called to master our desires. I’m not sure it’s any harder for a man with same-sex attraction to control his desires than it is fro a young heterosexual man to control his desires. But both are called by the Church to do so.

antag:

Why am I being condemned to a life of loneliness because of something I had no choice over?

First, please recognize that I am not condemning you, and neither does the Church. I don’t know what God’s personal plans for you may be. But I think you would be a happier person if you trusted God and tried to live according to what His Church says is the correct way to live, rather than letting your desires rule your actions. I’m not saying this in a “finger-wagging” kind of way. I’m merely suggesting that you consider it as a possible lifestyle choice.

Peace,
Robert

 

[aemcpa]

At least the option is possible, even if not probable.

I could say the same for you. It is at least possible that a woman could come along to whom you are sexually and emotionally attracted, and it is at least possible that you could eventually marry her.

 

[RedFox0456]

I don’t understand how you keep claiming that something being natural makes it right. Have you not understood that to sin is natural? To have feelings of anger is natural, too. I’m a pretty big guy, and in nature if a man was smaller than me and had something I wanted, it would be natural to take it from him, maybe beat him up if he didn’t give it to me outright. Everyone cringes at that prospect today, but it doesn’t mean it’s not a valid argument - it just means that we understand that it’s not acceptable. We are called to be greater than our own flawed nature. Please don’t mistake something for being good just because it is in your nature.

 

[antag]

I could say the same for you. It is at least possible that a woman could come along to whom you are sexually and emotionally attracted, and it is at least possible that you could eventually marry her.

Anything’s possible I suppose. But with the best will in the world, I don’t believe it’ll ever happen and there’s never been a hint of it so far in my more or less 4 decades on this planet…

 

[antag]

I don’t understand how you keep claiming that something being natural makes it right. Have you not understood that to sin is natural? To have feelings of anger is natural, too. I’m a pretty big guy, and in nature if a man was smaller than me and had something I wanted, it would be natural to take it from him, maybe beat him up if he didn’t give it to me outright. Everyone cringes at that prospect today, but it doesn’t mean it’s not a valid argument - it just means that we understand that it’s not acceptable. We are called to be greater than our own flawed nature. Please don’t mistake something for being good just because it is in your nature.

I’m a fairly big guy too, but I wouldn’t desire to steal from someone - because it would cause harm. No harm would be caused by me finding a same sex partner though. Not to either of us nor anyone else, and we would, if we did that, be living truthfully to our natures.

 

[KungLao]

Maybe you don’t have to be miserable and lonely at all. Are there only two choices? Is everyone called to marriage? People who are not married cannot fornicate either. Are they condemned to misery and loneliness?

Or should they think of their lives in another way? As an offering to God?

And perhaps, we can embrace our suffering with courage and love for God, knowing it can reduce temoral punishment in purgatory for us or someone else if offered up? Everyone has crosses. Some people have inclinations far “worse” than SSA, and are still expected to carry that cross. And the sympathy they receieve is generally far less than the sympathy given to those who struggle with SSA. I cannot think of a group that gets more public sympathy and suport in today’s society tha those with SSA. It is everywhere, and it is generally, only Christians left (and Muslims) who do not give them the validation they seek. Every other aspect of society condones and emnbraces them - education, politics, television, athletics.

We are not here for life on Earth. We are here for life in Heaven.

 

[Elizabeth502]

No harm would be caused by me finding a same sex partner though. Not to either of us nor anyone else, and we would, if we did that, be living truthfully to our natures.

No, our true natures, defined by the Catholic Church, not defined subjectively and privately by any one of us, is to conform to the natural order. Our true natures are not the same thing as our attractions. Attractions can be ordered and healthy and life-giving and emanating from God, or they can be quite the opposite, in which case, they oppose the natural order.

Some people are attracted to violence, to promiscuity, to bestiality, to theft, to unrestrained power, to inordinate wealth, to indiscriminate gossip. The fact that they subjectively experience these attractions as “perfectly natural” does not make them intrinsically natural or ordered. The standard for the natural order is an objective one, not a subjective one, thank goodness for that.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I’m a fairly big guy too, but I wouldn’t desire to steal from someone - because it would cause harm. No harm would be caused by me finding a same sex partner though. Not to either of us nor anyone else, and we would, if we did that, be living truthfully to our natures.

You missed the point being made. Just because something is in our nature - like the ability to threaten or steal - that does not make it good or acceptable. To be sure there is much about human nature that is good. But there are critical flaws as well. For example, our shared human capacity for self-deception and self-justification for wrong acts are two biggies.

Peace,
Robert

 

[SuperLuigi]

You’re not being condemned to any life of being lonely.

While I understand that what you are going through is difficult, your are whining.

First of all, you’re accusing the general population on here of being “uncharitable”.

Anyone who’s been here a while knows that word is tossed around like candy only because it’s mod lingo.

If you (or any other users on here for that matter) want to accuse people of something, find me direct quotes and please don’t paint everyone with a broad brush.

Secondly, the Catholic Church does not recognize authentic homosexuality as a choice. If you have those feelings, you have them.

Third, yes, you’re going to hear very solid reasons religious reasons against gay marriage. While I can’t encourage homosexual behaviour, I can tell you in the interest of the Constitution and the changing winds of public opinion, that you have a freedom of association so long as you don’t interfere with other people’s rights.

Having a court telling my wedding business that I have to do business with certain groups of people because it’s “discrimination” otherwise or teaching kindergartners about sex so that someone doesn’t have hurt feelings certainly crosses that line.

As I’ve said several times, gay marriage is more than just you and your partner quietly riding off into the sunset, and to quote Jason Lewis, I don’t see why you need soceity’s approval on this.

As for you making a subtle threat to leave the Church because you don’t feel wanted, I think you need to look more closely at services the Church offers for GLBTQ folks, learn to carry your cross.

God loves all of His children and while being gay may not be the easiest thing ever, you’re not the only person who’s had to suffer of face challenges in life. I think you need some serious perspective on this.

 

[RedFox0456]

Porn, masturbation, etc, do have an effect because they would cause me to devalue the object of the porn, masturbation, theft, etc. There’s a natural harm that comes from it.

But doesn’t same sex marriage devalue the sacrament? True, people get married who have no intention of having children, or any intention of really living their faith. Three things to consider here.

One - marriages performed outside of the Church are not considered to be valid.

Two - just by looking at a man and a women who intend to be wed, there is no way to know, without some sort of invasion of privacy, whether they truly intend to be open to life and the living sacraments together. So it is unfortunate that some couples “marry” in the Church, but of key note is that to marry under false pretenses invalidates the marriage in the eyes of the Church - there is just no way to know if a couple has done so. When a same sex couple comes forward, however, there is no mystery as to whether or not they intend to bear a child. It simply cannot be done.

Three - as far as an infertile couple goes, it’s not biblically unheard of that God would perform a miracle and make conception possible. I’m even willing to bet it’s not unheard of in the history of the Church, though such stories are not universally known. So my question here is, do you not believe in miracles or do you not believe that God would answer the prayers of a faithful couple?

 

[SuperLuigi]

I’m a fairly big guy too, but I wouldn’t desire to steal from someone - because it would cause harm. No harm would be caused by me finding a same sex partner though. Not to either of us nor anyone else, and we would, if we did that, be living truthfully to our natures.

It depends on if you’re talking about your relationship getting subsidized by government or changing the tax code or education cirricula.

That does affect most everyone.

Trouble is, what you seem to be describing isn’t enough for a lot of these activists. Two gay people together without some kind of special public tax benefit doesn’t help their agenda, which trust me, isn’t exactly your happiness.

 

[RedFox0456]

Also, I apologize if my tone seems unloving. I’m a mathematician and the analytic part of my mind has engaged, so I’m just looking at the situation as an exercise in logic. It’s not to devalue the serious implications of the discussion on your mind, your heart, and your soul, but I sometimes forget to express my emotions once I hop onboard the logic train.

 

[livingwordunity]

And perhaps, we can embrace our suffering with courage and love for God, knowing it can reduce temoral punishment in purgatory for us or someone else if offered up? Everyone has crosses. Some people have inclinations far “worse” than SSA, and are still expected to carry that cross. And the sympathy they receieve is generally far less than the sympathy given to those who struggle with SSA. I cannot think of a group that gets more public sympathy and suport in today’s society tha those with SSA. It is everywhere, and it is generally, only Christians left (and Muslims) who do not give them the validation they seek. Every other aspect of society condones and emnbraces them - education, politics, television, athletics.

We are not here for life on Earth. We are here for life in Heaven.

This

Love the sinner, but hate the sin.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Porn, masturbation, etc, do have an effect because they would cause me to devalue the object of the porn, masturbation, theft, etc. There’s a natural harm that comes from it.

Where is the natural harm in two people of the same sex freely giving themselves to the other in a bodily way? It’s not done selfishly, it’s done for the love of the other person. Isn’t that what the marital act is meant to be? The mutual love and support of the other that comes from the giving? Of course it’s not open to procreation with two gay people, so it’s not ‘marriage’ if ‘marriage’ is to be defined as the situation wherein babies can only be created legitimately. So that makes marriage twofold - one, for the love and support of the partner and two, for the creation of life. But plenty of people get married who can’t have children, and that includes people who know this before they are married. So if two straight people may legitimately have only that one aspect of marriage open to them, and if that same aspect is possible between two people of the same sex, then why are they denied it? It’s not right just to do so. I can’t believe that God requires me to bottle up that love that I could give another person and never express it. He said himself that we are to love one another as we ourselves would be loved. Why are we, his people, putting up barriers to stop that?

You are only considering one expression and aspect of love–one that is easily given over to selfishness. Love is so much more than that–ask anyone who is in a marriage where sexual intimacy has become next to–if not totally non-existent. You write as if there is no other way to love or to express you desire to love others–and given the culture we live in that is undestandable even if it is false.

I would suggest meditating on “love” for a while. I would suggest the first chapter of “No Man is an Island” by Thomas Merton. It is a chapter worth much thought and meditation–I would say for all of us.

Here are a few thoughts–none of them my own (and they apply to everyone):

Love seeks only one thing: the good of the one loved.

To love another is to will what is really good for him.

The first step to unselfish love is the recognition that our love may be deluded. We must first of all purify our love by renoucing the pleasure of loving as an end in itself. As long as pleasure is our end, we will be dishonest with ourselves and with those we love. We will seek not their good, but our own pleasure.

The truth I must love in my brother is God Himself, living in him.

I must become convinced and penetrated by the realization that without my love for them they may perhaps not acheive the things God has willed for them. My will must be the instrument of God’s will in helping them create their destiny.

My love must be for them the minister not of my own spirit but of the Holy Spirit. The words I speak to them must be no other than the words of Christ Who deigns to reveal Himself to them in me.

Only this charity which is as strong and as sure as the Spirit of God Hmself can save us from the lamentable error of pouring out on others a love that leads them into error and urges them to seek happiness where it can never be found.

In order to love others with perfect charity I must be true to them, to myself, and to God.

Selfish love often appears to be unselfish, because it is willing to make any concession to the beloved in order to keep him prisoner.

A love, therefore, that is selfless, that honestly seeks the truth, does not make unlimited concessions to the beloved.

I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man’s real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothers under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern. The spirtual life is oriented toward God, rather than toward the immediate satisfaction of the material need of life, but it it not, for all that, a life of unreality or a life of dreams. On the contrary, without a life of the spirit, our whole existence becomes unsubstantial and illusory.

Our life, as individual persons and as members of a perplexed and struggling race, provokes with evidence that it must have meaning. Part of that meaning still escapes us. Yet our purpose in life is to discover that meaning, and to live according to it.

Therefore this discovery of ourselves is always a losing of ourselves–a death and a resurrection.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’m a fairly big guy too, but I wouldn’t desire to steal from someone - because it would cause harm. No harm would be caused by me finding a same sex partner though. Not to either of us nor anyone else, and we would, if we did that, be living truthfully to our natures.

No harm, you say? No harm? I won’t go into physical consequences of sexual acts done with orifices that are not meant for such acts. There are many, and not pleasant ones.

But, no harm?

What about hell?

I guess you’d be willing to risk hell based on your own perception of what is “natural” for you to do on this earth.

Pedophiles think they are being true to their natures when they have sex with children.

 

[Do_Good_Then_Go]

Hi

I have been lurking on these boards for ages and ages now and this is the first time I’ve wanted to post. I know these topics are hard going so go easy on me.

I am a gay man. I am happy. I’m balanced. My life doesn’t revolve around my sexuality. I relate to people of both genders well. I have a wide circle of friends. I have a wide range of interests. I believe in God. I was brought up Catholic and I consider it my spiritual home…

So why am I posting here?

I am posting because I am constantly being hurt by the things said about me on sites like this.

No, nobody has actually said anything TO me - I only set up my account today. But I’ve read lots and lots of things on here, and all of them say things about me on the basis of one small part of me which people just can’t seem to get past.

So what if I’m gay? So what if I use a word that other people think is an indicator of a ‘lifestyle choice’?

I can tell you honestly that I didn’t choose this. I never made a conscious choice to choose to find men attractive instead of women. I can see beauty in women but it doesn’t ‘stir’ me in the way that beauty in men stirs me. And yet, I read so many people telling me on here that I made a choice, even identifying as a gay man is a choice and therefore a sinful one. I read people saying that I can ‘change’. Could someone please tell me how? I have often wondered how someone can believe that. I’ve looked at women. I know how procreation works. I know the process. None of it stirs me. I look at attractive men though and my blood runs faster… I don’t will it to happen. It just does. It’s cpmpletely natural to me.

Then I read people who say that my employer should be able to get rid of me just because of who I might desire to sleep with (even if I’ve never actually done so!). Somehow my sexual orientation is supposed to ‘rub off’ on someone else…

And then there’s all the statistics I see people post about how gay men are more dangerous around children. Well that’s not true for me - I’ve worked with children and I can tell people that not once have I ever desired harm for a child - it makes me sick to my stomach to even think about it. But I’m told that I’m a risk and that I’ll indoctrinate people into being gay…

How is it that God fearing religious people who are supposed to relish the truth and live in charity of heart, mind and soul towards other people are prepared to tell me lies about myself without even having met me?

I was brought up a Catholic by good kind hard working parents. They did everything right. I was a good kid. I didn’t get into trouble, I wasn’t abused by anyone, I was only smacked once as a child for being naughty because I wasn’t really a naughty child; I wasn’t pampered or spoiled but neither did I live in poverty. My parents went to church every sunday, I went and still go to church every sunday. I heard all the good things from the Church that you would have thought I needed to and still I ended up gay. Not through my own fault, not by choice, it wasn’t imposed on my by trendy teachers (I went to a Catholic school). It just IS.

So please, could people just step back and consider what they say about me? Because all the uncharitable stuff I’ve read on here has made me wonder why I should actually stay in the Church. Nobody seems to want me. So many seem to think that I’m deliberately rebelling against what I should be. That I’m denying my design or that by only wanting to find someone to love who will love me back that I’m somehow causing other people harm. Please tell me how that works? Tell me how what goes on in my heart affects someone else’s heart on the other side of the city?

Talk to me… tell me why I shouldn’t just leave the Church now? Because reading so many people here, if they’re right, there’s no hope for me, and if they’re wrong, then what am I doing associating with them in church in the first place?

Welcome antag. I don’t have any answers for you but I hope you stay.

Please know that there are people here who understand that homosexuality, for most, just IS (rather than a choice or because of inadequate parents or because of an instance of forgotten abuse in childhood), who don’t think homosexuals are pedophiles or sex maniacs, who understand that acknowledging one’s homosexuality doesn’t equate to ‘defining yourself by your sexuality’, who realise that most homosexuals are trying to go about their lives as best they can rather than activists with an agenda, and who realise that the word gay doesn’t necessarily mean sexually active. Actually, I don’t know anyone in real life who thinks that gay means sexually active. Why do some posters insist that it does?

I recently heard an Australian bishop say that the Church needs to grapple with how to maintain fidelity to the Church’s teachings and understanding of homosexuality while at the same time working to defend and uphold the dignity of homosexual people. I think this is very true and I don’t think it’s helpful to say ‘well, we all have our crosses’. Yes, we do all have our crosses but it seems to me that homosexual people have some specific issues that heterosexuals never even have to consider like the discrimination towards homosexual people that still exists and the fact that staying faithful to Church teachings means no possibility of marriage.

If a single heterosexual says they’re a bit lonely and they’d love to get married one day if only they could find the right person, everyone is sympathetic and encouraging and ‘well, you never know’. If a homosexual says the same thing, it is dismissed and the person is told in great detail why it can never happen and why they’re at fault for even thinking about it.

 

[LongingSoul]

As you can see, this is hurting me. I live with this hurt day in day out. It’s not a huge portion of my life, admittedly, since there are plenty of other things for me to do, but I am missing out on something I don’t believe I should be, and I haven’t found a good reason for that other than, effectively, “because we say so, and we’re always right”.

If I had chosen to follow my heart ten years ago, when I did fall in love with someone, I believe that I would have been happy and at peace. As it happens, I was too nervous. And I have real trouble believing that that is what God wants for me.

antag, psychology might pick you up on this belief. It’s a tripping point for many of us when we ascribe ‘mistake’ to a path we chose many years ago that ‘would have brought us true happiness’. From the Catholic point of view, your doubt and hesitation stopped you from a life of sin. The hand of God seems cruel when we look back in this way but if and when in time, you reconcile your heart and life to Church teaching… you’ll remember this time with enormous gratitude.

Very few choices to follow the way of Christ are every easy and without pain. ‘Pick up your Cross’ is what’s called for. St Paul, Augustine, Ignatius Loyola and so many of the lives of conversion we know of, talk about the hand of God in a similar way. It seems like a cruel meaningless gesture at the time, but in co-operating with grace and taking the leap of faith to follow the way of the Lord, each and every one gained so much more than a life of physical pleasure.

 

[IBombAtomically]

Hello, my friend! First, I’m very sorry to hear that you have been hurt by comments on here that assume the worst about “all” people with SSA. I’m trying to look at it from your perspective, and I would be hurt, too, to see that some people automatically assume you’d be out to corrupt the youth, hurt kids, and make others turn gay. You sound like a very decent guy and I have a ton of respect for you for following your faith.

I suggest looking up Cardinal Dolan’s recent comments about the need for the Church to reach out more to people with SSA.

Also, do you know the blog by Steve Gershom? It’s Called “Catholic, Gay, and Feelin’ Fine, thanks” and, to me, it is humbling and inspirational. One article written by him is quoted in this website: mattfradd.com/2012/06/14/catholic-gay-and-feeling-fine/

You asked if you should leave the Church – No!! Please, we love you and we want you with us! If I may humbly offer some perspective, do you believe in God? That Jesus Is the Son of God, who, in dying, redeemed our sins? Do you believe he gave us the Eucharist, and entrusted Peter to lead the Church on Earth? That His love is infinite, and transcends anything experienced in this world?If so, doesn’t my own sexual urges, or yours, for that matter, pale in comparison? He’s so much bigger than all of that. In giving that up some individuals have made insulting comments, you may be in danger of making a false god out of your own pride. We can all be tempted in this way! I know I have! In giving up the Church because of your sexual orientation, you may be in danger of creating a false god out of your own sexuality. Plenty of straight people have left the Church because of this, too (no sex outside of marriage, no contraception).

You have an important role in the Church, too! I am thankful for your original post because it helps point out where we are failing to love our neighbor, where we are being uncharitable. You also offer a good perspective on how we can reach out to our loved ones who are gay. For example, my dear BIL is gay, left the Church over it, and is engaged in extremely promiscuous and dangerous practices. Like, he has no problem having casual sex with an HIV-positive stranger. We are worried for him. But if anyone questions this, it’s because we are Catholic, so we must “hate him.” Or, we are afraid of gays. Your (name removed by moderator)ut in this situation would be helpful.

Anyway, please don’t leave the Church. I’d be honored to sit next to you at Mass IRL.