Tests Navy

[DonQuichote1235]

Hi all, I’m from the Netherlands and we don’t have a decent Catholic forum there so that’s why I ask this question here. I’m 26 and a practicing Roman Catholic and have just applied for the officer course in the Dutch Navy.

Those who have applied will get several tests, two of which are psychological. In the Netherlands it’s very ‘normal’ to smoke weed and do harddrugs when you go out. I have smoked weed for about 4 or 5 years from my 14th to my 19th almost daily. I quit smoking it altogether 4 or 5 years ago. I also used some harddrugs, but also quit with that in 2006, because of a promise I made to God that I wouldn’t do that anymore). 2006 was also the year I ‘re-verted’ back to Roman-Catholicism.

The thing is in the psychological interview they will ask if you use drugs or have used them in the past. I know from other people that if they know about that (if you still use them or have done in the past) it 9 times out of 10 means ‘exit’ for the applicant. They don’t want to hear anything about that. People who are being honest and tell them that they indeed smoked some weed in the past, don’t pass that test. My aunt (as a psychologist) has conducted those tests for the Navy for about ten years and she also strongly recommended my not to mention anything about the weed or other drugs. Or in any case say that “10 years or longer ago I have ‘tried’ some weed”, but still that’s dangerous.

So, I have got two questions: 1. is it a mortal sin when I would lie about this in the psychological interview (I know it’s a venial sin) and 2. can I go to confession before that test or should I wait after the test?

Because in confession you have to promise to God you don’t want sin anymore and will do your best to not doing sins anymore (at least have an honest intention).

First of all, I’m against lying and I don’t want to do this. The thing is, it’s either lying or speaking the truth. By speaking the truth this will result most certainly that I will not pass the psychological test and therefore cannot join the Navy. There’s no third option (maybe be saying an half truth, but probably I won’t get that option) so I don’t have a very good choice if I want to join the Navy. Furthermore, I think it goes too far that I will be punished for my youth sins that were done many years ago. I don’t use drugs anymore and I don’t want to use them ever again. I also don’t want to lie and usually I’m very cautious (maybe even scrupulous) with the things I say.

So referring back to my questions: 1. is it a mortal sin and 2. can I go to confession before that or do I have to wait after that? Thanks in advance!

yours,

DonQuichote.

 

[Orogeny]

First of all, I’m against lying and I don’t want to do this.

Then don’t. Answer honestly and, if the Navy is where God is directing you, you will not be rejected.

Peace

Tim

 

[Nan_S]

I’m 26 and a practicing Roman Catholic and have just applied for the officer course in the Dutch Navy.

Those who have applied will get several tests, two of which are psychological. In the Netherlands it’s very ‘normal’ to smoke weed and do harddrugs when you go out. I have smoked weed for about 4 or 5 years from my 14th to my 19th almost daily. I quit smoking it altogether 4 or 5 years ago. I also used some harddrugs, but also quit with that in 2006, because of a promise I made to God that I wouldn’t do that anymore). 2006 was also the year I ‘re-verted’ back to Roman-Catholicism.

The thing is in the psychological interview they will ask if you use drugs or have used them in the past. I know from other people that if they know about that (if you still use them or have done in the past) it 9 times out of 10 means ‘exit’ for the applicant. They don’t want to hear anything about that. People who are being honest and tell them that they indeed smoked some weed in the past, don’t pass that test. My aunt (as a psychologist) has conducted those tests for the Navy for about ten years and she also strongly recommended my not to mention anything about the weed or other drugs. Or in any case say that “10 years or longer ago I have ‘tried’ some weed”, but still that’s dangerous.

You say you are 26 now. You quit smoking weed 4-5 years ago when you were 21-22, and quit using hard drugs in 2006 when you were 20. You were a responsible adult well past legal age. It is unlikely that the authorities will think as you do, that those were sins of your youth from many years ago.

God is generous and forgiving. The Navy is not.

I was a member of the US military. The worst of all situations for the applicant is to lie on the drug questions, be admitted, then have his past uncovered in a background check. Yes, the military does background checks, and for higher level clearances they do very stringent background checks. If you lie about your past, you will likely be discovered to be a liar and lose your security clearance. You will also probably be discharged in disgrace and may even get slapped with a big bill for military benefits collected under false pretences.

Bottom line: tell the truth. Because you can be sure that when the Men in Black start poking around your old neighborhood, they’ll turn up some else who will.

 

[DonQuichote1235]

I haven’t seen this: “You say you are 26 now. You quit smoking weed 4-5 years ago when you were 21-22, and quit using hard drugs in 2006 when you were 20. You were a responsible adult well past legal age. It is unlikely that the authorities will think as you do, that those were sins of your youth from many years ago.”

Well, let’s say I quit smoking weed when I was 19, but after then I smoked in once in a while, but after that not anymore. You should understand that smoking weed is not illegal in the Netherlands. In my street alone there are 2 ‘coffeeshops’ where they sell primarily weed. We think way differently about these issues than probably most Americans if not the whole world…that’s the Netherlands.

I didn’t use harddrugs a lot. Let’s say occasionally on vacation and major parties. Not too many times, but the same about weed also applies to xtc and ghb. Those things are regularly used by lots of people in my country. That doesn’t make it right, I know that, I’m against the Dutch drugs policy etc…

But you agree with me that the government doesn’t think that way. That’s just that point I’m making. If I would tell the truth, probably it’s exit! I find that too extreme (because on all other things, most likely) I am well-qualified), but on the account of my history on this small detail I won’t pass that test. Do you understand what I mean?

About the possible disclosure: I don’t think that system work in the Netherlands. And I don’t think they will find out. Maybe if I’d be Prime-Minister, they would interview friends of mine. Furthermore, I don’t think the psychological interviews will be saved and recorded at all. I’m not sure but I think it’s just go-or-nogo test to start the officer course to see if you are disciplines, confident and stress-resistant etc…

DonQuichote.

 

[nodito]

It’s not always easy to do the right thing. Lying is sinful. Lying can be grave matter, depending on what effect the lie might have and what the lie is. Deceiving the military sounds pretty serious to me. You know that it’s sinful and you are deliberating over it, so yes, it’s possible that this would be a mortal sin for you.

Also, to plan on waiting to go to confession so that you are able to lie and then be forgiven is to commit the sin of presumption of God’s mercy. Go to confession now so that you have the grace to resist temptation to lie on your psychological test.

Unfortunately, our choices have consequences, and even though you did it many years ago and you’ve since repented, one of the consequences of your choice to do drugs and smoke weed is that it may make it difficult or impossible for you to pursue your desired career path.

 

[Orogeny]

I think you are missing the point. This isn’t about the government, it is about you. The question is whether or not YOU are willing to lie. As this is a Catholic forum and you posted this thread in the Moral Theology section, I think that you understand that but are looking for a reason to lie.

Ask yourself why you think that you should have a job that you believe that you have to lie to get.

Peace

Tim

 

[DonQuichote1235]

Because the government could be extremely scrupulous and over-exaggerating and even hypocrital (if you take the Dutch government’s very progressive stance on weed usage) allowing 18-year-olds freely into the coffeshops…but anyway, I understand your points.

However, could you elaborate on the presuming on God’s Mercy?

DonQuichote!

 

[nodito]

If I would tell the truth, probably it’s exit! I find that too extreme (because on all other things, most likely) I am well-qualified), but on the account of my history on this small detail I won’t pass that test. Do you understand what I mean?

Yes, I do, but it’s really not up to you to decide whether the penalty is fair or not. The Navy has the right to reject an otherwise well-qualified candidate on account of past drug use.

You recognize that the Navy needs people who are confident, able to cope under stress, etc. Consider that it also needs men and women who are courageous and willing to make sacrifices. You would be demonstrating moral courage to speak truthfully even though it may come at a great personal cost.

And the thing is, it might not. Whether or not they reject you for your past drug use is pure speculation, You can only control what you do, so speak the truth and take comfort from Mother Teresa’s words, “Be faithful in small things because it is in them that your strength lies.”

 

[nodito]

However, could you elaborate on the presuming on God’s Mercy?

This link explains the sin of presumption. Here is an excerpt from Father Serpa’s answer:

One wonders how sincere a person’s love for God is when he is so readily willing to sin simply because God is forgiving. God cannot be fooled. He reads hearts and knows our sincerity. To decide to sin is to offend God. To decide to sin because one knows that he can be forgiven is to sin twice. It is to use God, reducing him to a utility at the service of our whim. It is to laugh at his passion and death.

 

[Nan_S]

Presuming upon God’s mercy is making a decision to knowingly do something sinful or reckless because you believe the divine safety net will keep you safe. Example: You party hearty on Friday, because you know you can go to confession on Saturday and get all cleaned up before Sunday mass. You do it again the following week. And again the week after. Then you start switching between priests, so that one won’t notice you’ve made a habit of this and rebuke you instead of absolving you.

Lying is a sin, sometimes venial and sometimes mortal depending on the circumstances. Intentionally timing your confession so that you can be absolved of a lie you plan to tell is another sin which is much much worse. And if you get away with it once, you will find it easier to do the next time. Here’s the problem: You may fool the priests, but you won’t fool God.

Presuming upon God’s mercy is a very serious sin against the Holy Spirit. You are saying you can do as you please because God won’t hold you accountable. That is wrong. You try to fool God but you are instead testing His patience.

Jesus was tempted to presume upon God’s mercy when the Devil tempted Him in the desert. The Devil challenged Him to throw Himself from the top of the temple and presume that the Father would send angels to catch Him. Jesus answered, “Thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test.”

Jesus in his human body was starving and exhausted, possibly even semi-delirious, when the Devil tempted Him, yet He resisted. Can you in your well-fed and well-rested human body, with your mind clear, follow Jesus’ example?