tg life styles

  • Thread starter Thread starter aspawloski4th
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

aspawloski4th

Guest
I have 2 friends that are transsexual and 1 that is a crossdresser. is there any statements or official teachings from the Catholic church concearning these 2 life styles? especially on how it would affect salvation. help on this subject from clergy or those with any type of degree in theology is much appreciated. thanks for any helpful (name removed by moderator)ut given.
 
I put this question in the miscellanous forum, because I truely dont know where to put it. if the moderators think there is a better forum please put it there and notify me of it. thanks
 
I’m sorry. I did a search through the Church documents at the EWTN website and through the Catechism but didn’t come up with anything. Maybe the experts in the Ask An Apologist Forum can help you with this one.
 
I did the ask an apologist route more than 2 weeks ago and have not gotten an answer. thankyou for trying! the church is going to have to have something definative on these issues, and soon.
 
Any surgery that renders the person sterile is a sin (unless it is done to save the life, for example, removing cancer of the uterus will have the unintentional effect of making the person sterile).

Acts of sex outside of marriage are sinful.

Dressing in a way that draws inappropriate attention is immodest dress, and cross-dressing does draw undue attention!

CCC**2524 **The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

All of these topics can be researched in the CCC.

There is a group called Courage in the Catholic Church, they should have links/information for you.

God Bless
 
I would heartily agree that this is a matter which hasn’t received the kind of direct attention it deserves either from the Church or the Christian psychological community. Afterall, there are many people who experience these tendencies and truly need both spiritual and psychological assistance. It would be desirable that some sort of ministy be developed along the line of Courage, the Catholic ministry for those who struggle with homosexual attraction. This is becoming more clear in recent times as society becomes more permissive and the internet allows people to readily explore and connect with others who are likeminded. Just do a google search and you’ll quickly discover many sites which deal with transgenderism is all of it’s variant forms, for example, such that the extent of the problem ought to become readily discernible.

Traditionally, these disorders have been referred to as “gender dysphoria”. It appears unclear and debateable as to what exactly causes them, though often it appears to begin it’s manifestation in childhood or adolescent experiences. It also tends to be much more prevalent among men.

As you allude to, there are various forms and levels of it, including crossdressing, transvestivism, and transexualism. Some are just interested in more fetishist aspects (and might not even consider themselves “crossdressers”). For many it is a sexual thing. A few turn this into “drag queen” type performance and lifestyle. Others enjoy the fantasy of imagining themselves a member of the other gender or experiencing the other “side” of humanity for a period of time. It seems something of an escape. Yet others consider themselves to have been born with the wrong body and, in reality, a member of the opposite sex. They may even resent use of the term “transgenedered”. Some of these will go to the extent of living much of the time as a member of the opposite sex and, possibly, take it “full time” then onto the operation.

There is a certain amount of counseling available for those with such problems. But there would seem to be, within the psychological community, also, a certain willingness to accept at least the most serious situations as something where proper treatment includes enabling a “transition”. At least such people are encouraged to slow down and examine certain things more critically while recognizing the serious life change that they are setting upon, especially if it gets to the level of hormonal supplements and sexual reassignment surgery. However, such counseling may help those who really aren’t in that group to acknowledge such and save them the heartache while, perhaps, enabling them to get some help in dealing with whatever it is that leads them to have their passions.

Of course, one might be led to question just what the phychology is of physicians who have chosen to perform such operations. There is even at least one well known doctor who has personally had the surgery.

Anyway, with all of this variation going on even within the general sense of the matter, there really are a lot of unique moral problems which it can present. (I haven’t even touched upon the difficulties which this can potentially cause for a spouse and children or society, including the workplace.) I suppose that what one needs to do is look at the unique circumstances of any particular situation and just apply a good and solid moral evaluation (as well as pastoral response) to that unique set of challenges faced by the person in question.
 
Becoming a transexual by gender modification would be morally wrong. If you are male then you are male regardless of your feelings. Instead of mutilation therapy is the answer. The psych community doesn’t even try. It is far to influenced by pc activists. Cross-dressing is also a psychological problem that should be treated. It is also morally wrong. It is immodest for a male to dress as a female. This is the short answer, but I would refer these people to the Catholic Medical Association. I believe they are online.
 
thankyou for the (name removed by moderator)ut. im a bit surprised that the church puts such an emphasis on the physical and seem to ecnore the non physical usually the church isnt that shallow. I also dont understand how modesty and imodesty are defined here. believe me I grew up around modesty, my parents think the vicorian era didnt go near far as it should of. modesty is dressing in non revealing clothes, that the definition I grew up with. so this depresses me for my friends a bit. I know all 3 would commit suicide if they couldnt live their life style, by the way the 2 ts’s are dutch reformed, and the cd is catholic. ohwell.
 
By living in opposition to God’s law they commit spiritual suicide. It is shallow to say that if I can’t live my sinful lifestyle I will kill myself. God cannot be held hostage by that kind of threat. It is their lifestyle that leads to suicide and they need help in accepting the gender that they are.
 
2 points r questions… what about those who do live the way they are supposed to ,but are depressed to the extent of being almost non functional, because of the desire to live the “wrong way”? and I still dont understand why such an emphesis on the physical? in many other aspects of life the church doesnt worry about the physical at all, but here thats all they seem to care about. the 2 ts’s I know have less of a chance handling live as male than I would hitting a homerun off of the new york yankees best pitcher in a world series game. ysounds like a damned if they do damnedif they dont situation to me.
 
How do you mean putting “such an emphesis on the physical”? (And in what way does the Church not focus on the physical at all in certain areas)?

As far as modesty, merely focusing on “revealing clothing” doesn’t really get at the essence of the nature of modesty and only focuses on one piece of external manifestation concerning modesty.

Admittedly, the trial which some people who experience transexual tendencies go through can be quite severe. As you correctly note, some can not fathom living as a member of the sex which they seemingly are and trying to do so seems to even cripple their life. Such is usually a signifigant part of why some are given the phychologcal pass to have the operation. (Though, later, a number have lived to regret that decision.) Indeed, not a few (faced with the grave difficulty) have commited suicide.

In response, then, we need to be careful to honestly recognize the problem for what it is and not oversimply our reaction or judgements, acknowledging both the moral problems as well as the existential ones at play. But, though it be difficult, one must always hope that perhaps with prayer (remembering that this is, afterall, a spiritual matter too), good treatment (both psychologcal and other medical - possibly hormonal, for example), and support that those who suffer this ailment can in some way be helped to get through it effectively and live life as best as faithfully possible under the circumstances.
 
I can agree with that more. by the way if one is to go to other sections of this message board theyd know Im conservative and typically oldfathioned. what do I mean by the church putting more emphesis on non physical things? there are 4 aspects of health physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. the catholic church has always put more emphesis on the latter 2 at least and is beginning to reconise mental also. annother example king henry8th if the church would of been putting an emphesis on the physical in that case, the fat english king would of had his divorce legally.
I can see not allowing any surgeries, after all the church doesnt allow tatoos. I can see not being allowed to marry even. but doning different clothes and a different name? Istill question that. is it just as “bad” in private as in public? and I do have a doublestandard problem myself, example joan of arc most of her life was known as a male, I dont see any critism of that, Ive heard other examples like joan of arc’s that I cant specifically think of off the top of my head that never get critisised. that will never sit well with me since Im never on the side of any doublestandards.
those are my thoughts so far, any web sites/pages I can read on this? I am going to look up the definition of modesty in my dictionary when I can find the darn thing. because I never heard of modesty being defined the way it is here. to me it meant only making sure your clothes are as unrevealing as possible.and that comes from a household that puts anything victorian to shame.I still think the church should address these issues specifically and categorely, and not leave it to us to find out thru statements on other subjects.
 
Well, you raise many worthwhile discussion points. Let me try to respond to a few.

As concerns the definition of modesty, I recommend not so much a dictionary as things like the catechism or theological treatises. I don’t know what you might find online, so I won’t attempt links, but if you are willing to buy a couple of books, I think that Alice Von Hildebrand has excellent insight. There was also a woman on a replay of EWTN’s The Journey Home last night who deals with this subject. Naturally, the present pope’s writings would reveal more insight, too. Particularly Theology of the Body and Love and Responsibility

The larger concern I have there, however (not just WRT modesty but lots of stuff) is that the dictionary isn’t really the obvious place to look for an understanding of things that can be best illuminated by the perspective of faith and morals which the Church provides.

Why hasn’t the Church categorically addressed this subject at greater length? Well, I suppose that question could be asked about a lot of things. It would appear that the Church tends to widely respond primarily to questions only when they become sufficiently widespread in their problematicness. Afterall, it’s not ultimately required of the Church to specifically respond to every single possible difficulty which exists in society in a more formalized way.

Further, we have to be able to use our reason to deduce some of these things in lived experience of life. That’s just an expected responsibility, I think. Being a responsible adult Catholic means more than simply obeying a set of formal guidelines from on high. We must be able to think things through and apply the principles with our reasonable faculties based upon what we already know.

As to the “physical” matters, I think that in a certain sense the Church has always focused upon these things, but different periods of time have merely found different emphases. The fact that, in recent decades, there may have been a heavy focus on one aspect, perhaps to the detriment of another, is just an unfortunate reality of life and perhaps something of a natural cycle. Of course, that’s not to say that the Church can’t always do better.

What someone does in their bodily expression is a reflection of an interior disposition. While it wouldn’t necessarily be inherantly evil to wear clothing of the opposite gender or use a different name, one must ask why the person is doing that. Milton Berle put on a dress for comedic effect, for instance. Was it sinful? No. But if one is doing something (like using another name or wearing clothing appropriate to the opposite sex) for reasons which go against their very nature as a person of a particular sex, then they are violating their own dignity. This is, ultimately, what usually occurs with those who fall under the various categories of transgenderism in it’s many forms.

Should it matter whether they do it in private or public? Well, I suppose that there is a greater potential scandal and disruption to society if it is public. But Jesus reminded us that we can sin just with our very thoughts that are unknown to anyone else. So, even if something like crossdressing were done entirely behind closed doors (which, if you think about it in the larger scheme of things, it really isn’t entirely; seeing as how they have to get the clothes from somewhere and so are causing others to participate at least indirectly in their actions), sure it’s still a problem.
 
40.png
aspawloski4th:
I have 2 friends that are transsexual and 1 that is a crossdresser. is there any statements or official teachings from the Catholic church concearning these 2 life styles? especially on how it would affect salvation. help on this subject from clergy or those with any type of degree in theology is much appreciated. thanks for any helpful (name removed by moderator)ut given.
Do your friends have any respect for religion or theology to begin with? If not I don’t see what good it will do to quote some theologian to them regarding their lifestyle.

It is a violation of the natural law to attempt to blur the lines separating men and women and that is why it is wrong. We should all respect the differences between the sexes because in the same ways we are different we are also complimentary, and that is why God made us the way we are!
 
aspawloski4th said:
1 that is a crossdresser.

Of course Leviticus says that crossdressers should be put to death, but I’m always confused by the cafeteria-style approach we have towards the laws of Moses.
 
on account of the law of moses remember we can eat pork now.
the 2 ts friends are dutch reformed and the cd is catholic. all 3 go to church. one ts has had all the surgeries and the other has had no surgeries. I doubt anyone could tell them snything that would change their mind. the reason I started this thread is I had no idea where the church was on it, and its my nature to be concearned with the soul. I have the little kid in me still that wants all my family and friends with me heaven when is it all said and done someday. I wonder if theres a web site/page that is catholic I can go to that addresses these type if issues?
 
40.png
aspawloski4th:
I wonder if theres a web site/page that is catholic I can go to that addresses these type if issues?
A quick google search really doesn’t reveal much of any value. (In fact this thread pops up high in some of the listings and may almost be the best resources available now.) Sadly, it seems that the Church just hasn’t done much to formally and actively address the concern; and so we are largely left on our own to figure these things out.

As far as your friends, I suppose that one can always hope that they will one day make it to heaven. Pray for them and continue to be their friend. Perhaps through recognizing the joy and sanity of a dedicated Catholic’s relationship with Jesus, maybe combined with some spiritual experience or opportune moment, they will be helped to find greater meaning in their life experience in Christ and his intersection with humanity which lifts us all up such that they will one day be able to come through this. And, even if that is not the case, we can always be confident that the Lord walks with them in their pain and trial, constantly reaching out his hand in compassion, even if they fail to see and understand the value of where it leads. Possibly, their sincerity and longing for him which in some way does exist will prove to enable their ultimate salvation.
 
chicago: thankyou for your kind , charitable, and respectful remarks Ill take them to heart, and reflect on them. Ill also pray on this issue too. And in the meantime Ill do some of that over a coke and a choclate chip cookie. thankyou again
 
update, several weeks ago I convinced the cd friend to try not cding , he has, but is most depressed. wonder if I did the wright thing. I keep mulling it over, but I hate to see this long time friend depressed, we wants to do what is wright, but really cant stand being male. I beginning to think there isnt a good solution to this one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top