Thank God for Evolution!

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oh, I forgot to mention that these days we have the reverse situation from that of the olden days. Today we have the history of science and the philosophy of theology. We have come a long way, BABY! 😃 Haven’t we?
Wildleafblower, what is “philosophy of theology”? I’m not familiar with this term.
 
**msg. 389 from December 8, 2007 not yet answered by Dr. Peter M. J. Hess (drpmjhess)] **Dr. Hess, you have claimed to be a Roman Catholic Theologian who publicly speaks on behalf of members that belong to the Roman Catholic Church. I have every right and depend on you to correctly represent me in the public eye and adhere to the teachings found within the Vatican: Holy See website (1) that scholars and laypersons can freely access. Do you support what the Pope (s), Bishops, and their Scientific Advisory Committee have stated and the teachings of the Church which are found in the Catechism, The new American Bible and its Compendium?
1.vatican.va/
http://www.vatican.va/
 
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wildleafblower:
Wildleafblower, what is “philosophy of theology”? I’m not familiar with this term.
 
Peter Wilders:
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hecd2:
…the features that invalidate the rapid deposition of the Tonto group do not depend on the principle of superposition.
Statements of this kind are made without any supporting experimental evidence. Moreover, the experimental results published by the French academy and Geological Society contradict the statement.

You can only make statements like this because you are hell-bent on supporting Berthault’s ridiculous claims regardless of the evidence. The evidence that invalidates the possibility that Tonto was deposited as Berhault claims includes, amongst many other things, surface water ripple marks, trilobite trails and brachiopod fossils in Tapeats, inhomogeneity in the strata, eg coarse grained inclusions in Bright Angel Shale and the lack of credible sedimentary mechanisms to form fine grained sediments at the rate of 35 feet a day in the consolidated form. Not only does Berthault not address these issues in the French paper, he does not address them anywhere.
It is also a false claim to say that the principle of superposition has been invalidated.

The same published results give empirical reasons for validating the claim. The principle of superposition is not invalidated by this work. This work does not invalidate the principle that, in the absence of thrust faults and sills, a stratum is younger than the strata it overlies as Tim has so eloquently demonstrated
Berthault has not managed to get a paper published in a mainstream western geology journal for 14 years.

The eastern geological mainstream geology journal published his paper because the western scientific media is closed to challenges to the evolutionist paradigm. Ironically today there is more liberty of scientific thought in the East than the west. Incidentally, the libellous accusations made by members of this thread being against the Russian Academy of Science display ignorance and intolerance unworthy of any scientist.
Thank you for acknowledging that his Chinese and Russian papers are completely unpublishable in Western high-impact journals. It is a universal fact that those who produce scientific garbage always complain that they are not published because there is a conspiracy against them - this is true not just for young earth creationism but every other stripe of pseudo-scientific crankery. (By the way, I have made no accusation against the Russian Academy of Sciences, which is, I am sure, a fine institution. However, I have pointed that Berthault’s Russian papers present no new data, rely on a YEC geology that is totally rejected by the entire geological community, are of extremely low quality and are unpublishable in Western journals. That is a problem for the editor and referees of that journal - and your silly notion that criticising the journal in that way is libel shows that you know next to nothing about how science is done. You want to accord organisations that publish Berthault uncritical respect - you won’t get that from me or from other scientists. If the editors of these journals make fools of themselves, as they have here, then no scientist would hesitate to point it out - neither the journal, nor its editor nor the sponsoring institution are above criticism and they get just as much respect as they earn - in this case none at all.)

As for intolerance, what a delicious irony it is that an acolyte of the Kolbe Center should accuse a scientist of intolerance.

Alec
evolutionpages.com/berthault_critique.htm
 
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hecd2:
…his own collaborator on the 1993 paper who has published dozens of papers on sedimentology and who is a highly respected sedimentologist rejects Berthault’s conclusions.
The sedimentologist was Pierre Julien who in conjunction with Berthault endorsed the conclusions. They were published in the 1993 paper Experiments in Stratification of Heterogeneous Sand Mixtures (Julian, Lan , by the Geological Society of France (with three sedimentologist referees). It states: Rather than successive sedimentary layers, these experiments demonstrate that stratification under a continuous supply of heterogeneous sandy mixtures results from segregation for lamination, non-uniform flow for graded beds and desiccation for joints.
Yes but this is in no way a claim that the principle of superposition is invalidated (which it isn’t as we have seen). I have said very clearly that I have no problem with the experimental work but with its interpretation. The conclusion you quote is not a claim that the entire post-Cambrian geological column was deposited rapidly in a single event. It is not a claim that geology should be revolutionised. Those claims came from Berthault later and are **rejected **by Julien.
Without going on, it should be clear to any objective person that, Berthault’s critic believes arguing from his own opinion and appealing to the majority is sufficient. Let him back his objection by solid science and he will be listened to.
Peter, my name is Alec, not “Berthault’s critic” - do you have a problem with looking me in the eye? The fact is that objective scientists have already pronounced on this subject – they have rejected Berthault’s grandiose claims. As for solid science I have provided it over and over again. The problem is that you are not engaged in a scientific discussion – you are engaged in (rather poor) propaganda for a pre-determined religious belief. No science that shows your belief to be wrong will ever be good enough for you, because you use science in a perverse way – not to discover the truth but as a prop for the truth you think you already know.

It is another delicious irony that you talk about me being listened to when the problem for Berthault is that the scientific community is not listening to him at all.

Can you give me straight answers to these questions?

Pierre Julien has supervised 31 PhD students working in sedimentation and erosion, written two text books on sedimentology, contributed to seven other books, published 61 papers and 45 articles in peer reviewed journals, delivered 30 invited conference papers, published 87 papers in conference proceedings, is superbly well placed to assess the implications of the work - and rejects Berthault’s grandiose claims for the work. Why?

How many other papers cite Berthault’s so-called revolutionary papers?

How many papers amongst the hundreds on sedimentation and stratigraphy published annually in geology journals since Berthault published his ‘revolutionary’ papers in the 1990s suggest that the entire post-Cambrian column was deposited rapidly in a single event? Exactly how many, Peter? You won’t find it difficult to count them, I assure you.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Wildleafblower, what is “philosophy of theology”? I’m not familiar with this term.
It’s the ‘rubber ducky’ that creationists use! An example would be a theologian instructing a science teacher what to tell their students about creation. Notice this is a UK website:
bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/ForTeachers
http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/ForTeachers

Which results in “Creationism should be tackled in science lessons, schools told” etc:
truthinscience.org.uk/site/content/blogcategory/51/63/
http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/site/content/blogcategory/51/63/

It makes me nauseated!

In regards to my message 818 to you, please correct me if I’m wrong Dr. Hess, you’re not a Roman Catholic.
 
Orogeny posts a challenge

**Show me where a younger deposit is beneath an older deposit in that diagram, **

Obviously there is confusion over terms. It mainly concerns beneath and below. Let me clarify.

A particle is beneath another particle if the top particle is touching the bottom particle. For example my head is beneath my hat (they are touching). The contrary of beneath is on top.

A particle below another one means that if you draw a horizontal line, any particle below the line is below any particle above the line. They can be miles apart. For example if I live up a hill, all those in the valley are below me. The contrary of below is above.

Another term which seems to be misunderstood is upstream and downstream. The words imply that there actually was water, flowing with a current. The current coming from upstream and goes to downstream.

In the light of this terminology let’s see what the experimental data of Guy Berthault shows.

First, it should be noted that it Berthault’s study of rock formation takes into account the paleohydraulic conditions of strata development.

Let us look at this simple animation:



Fig 1: Sediments are being deposited.

The sedimentary particles are sorted out according to size and water conditions.

Two strata are being formed: the one above and the one below.

In the one above particle A is deposited at time t1.



Fig 2: The strata continue forming downstream at time 2.

Note that particle B (shown in the next figure) has not yet deposited,

particle A however is already aging.



Fig 3: A sedimentary particle B is deposited at time t3 in the lower bed.

It was deposited after particle A.

It is clear is that particles downstream in the lower bed were actually deposited after particles in the upper bed.

Parts of the strata below (B) are younger than parts of the strata above (A).

To se the whole sequence click on the following URL

gberthault.googlepages.com/strata.swf

Once the water has gone only the strata can be seen. Unless the direction of current is known, upstream cannot be determined from downstream and we have no way of knowing whether A was deposited before or after B.

The strata are of no help. This is where Guy Berthault`s work challenges the principle of superposition. It shows why no chronological conclusions can be drawn from strata alone. Based on the superposition principle, B would be wrongly said to be older.

The prinicple of superposition to which Berthault is referring is the standard one defined in the American Geological Institute Glossary of Geology as:
**‘A general law upon which all geologic chronology is based: in any sequence of sedimentary strata (or of extrusive igneous rocks) that has not been overturned, the youngest stratum is at the top and the oldest at the base; that is, each bed is younger than the bed beneath, but older than the bed above it. The law was first clearly stated by Steno (1669).’ **
(In his publications Berthault referred to Steno in the same way as the AGI).

Here is the visual version:

classzone.com/books/earth_science/terc/content/investigations/es2903/es2903page03.cfm

I hope this helps.

Peter
 
Tah Dah Man, I hope you read my message 780! As far as your quote above, “From the Divine Word, the Sacred Scripture and Nature did both alike proceed…” –Galileo Galilei, Galileo’s letters of 1613-15., I’d like YOU to direct me where Galileo made that statement.

Here’s the only source I could find on the Web. It has another translation.
online.chabotcollege.edu/shildreth/isls/2003program/galileo7.html

The Galileo quote that I posted was from the book, “Men of Science, Men of God” by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D. It has 101 bios of the greatest scientists of the past.
You can find it here:
fetchbook.info/Men_of_Science%2C_Men_of_God.html

Men of Science, Men of God (list of contemporaries)
answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/bios/default.asp
 
It’s the ‘rubber ducky’ that creationists use! An example would be a theologian instructing a science teacher what to tell their students about creation. Notice this is a UK website: E]It makes me nauseated!.
Of course I’m Catholic, as I’ve said all along. But what do rubber duckies have to do with “philosophy of theology”? And what do you object to in the UK website?
Petrus
 
Orogeny posts a challenge

**Show me where a younger deposit is beneath an older deposit in that diagram, **

Obviously there is confusion over terms. It mainly concerns beneath and below. Let me clarify.
Here we go. Do you really need to define above and below? Is this sort of like “It depends what “is” is?”?
A particle is beneath another particle if the top particle is touching the bottom particle. For example my head is beneath my hat (they are touching). The contrary of beneath is on top.
A particle below another one means that if you draw a horizontal line, any particle below the line is below any particle above the line. They can be miles apart. For example if I live up a hill, all those in the valley are below me. The contrary of below is above.
Heck, maybe even a continent apart! And the poor, dumb geologist who is in the field is so ignorant that he doesn’t quite understand that when he looks at an outcrop, he really must move to the other continent to determine which layer is above and which layer is below.
Another term which seems to be misunderstood is upstream and downstream. The words imply that there actually was water, flowing with a current. The current coming from upstream and goes to downstream.
Which of course no one else but you understood.:rolleyes: What else could that mean? And I guess that you can’t account for aeolian deposits or evaporites or carbonates, but I know that you will tell me that is for someone else to research.
In the light of this terminology let’s see what the experimental data of Guy Berthault shows.

First, it should be noted that it Berthault’s study of rock formation takes into account the paleohydraulic conditions of strata development.
What rock formation? How many rocks has this guy actually studied? He did a flume study, not an investigation of rocks. And yes, there is a difference.
Let us look at this simple animation:
Fig 1: Sediments are being deposited.
The sedimentary particles are sorted out according to size and water conditions.
Two strata are being formed: the one above and the one below.
In the one above particle A is deposited at time t1.
Fig 2: The strata continue forming downstream at time 2.
Note that particle B (shown in the next figure) has not yet deposited,
particle A however is already aging.
Fig 3: A sedimentary particle B is deposited at time t3 in the lower bed.
It was deposited after particle A.
It is clear is that particles downstream in the lower bed were actually deposited after particles in the upper bed.
Wow, prograding bedding. Again, why didn’t we poor, dumb geologists ever think of that? Oh, yeah, we did. Nothing original here.
Parts of the strata below (B) are younger than parts of the strata above (A).
Yep. Just use that sideways definition of above and below and it all makes sense!
Once the water has gone only the strata can be seen. Unless the direction of current is known, upstream cannot be determined from downstream and we have no way of knowing whether A was deposited before or after B.
And of course, flow direction can almost always be determined. But you probably don’t want to admit that.
The strata are of no help.
Why not?
This is where Guy Berthault`s work challenges the principle of superposition. It shows why no chronological conclusions can be drawn from strata alone. Based on the superposition principle, B would be wrongly said to be older.
And he is absolutely, demonstrably incorrect. It does show why no one should listen to Berthault.

Remember everyone, in order for you to buy this lie, you MUST accept that above and below don’t mean what they do to you and to every geologist, but rather to mean that above and below REALLY means side ways. ANY other interpretation and Berthault’s deception falls apart. Are you really that gullible?

Peace

Tim
 
[msg. 389 from December 8, 2007 and msg. 818 still not yet answered by Dr. Peter M. J. Hess (drpmjhess)] Dr. Hess, you have claimed to be a Roman Catholic Theologian who publicly speaks on behalf of members that belong to the Roman Catholic Church. I have every right and depend on you to correctly represent me in the public eye and adhere to the teachings found within the Vatican: Holy See website (1) that scholars and laypersons can freely access. Do you support what the Pope (s), Bishops, and their Scientific Advisory Committee have stated and the teachings of the Church which are found in the Catechism, The new American Bible and its Compendium?
1.vatican.va/
http://www.vatican.va/
 
Remember everyone, in order for you to buy this lie, you MUST accept that above and below don’t mean what they do to you and to every geologist, but rather to mean that above and below REALLY means side ways. ANY other interpretation and Berthault’s deception falls apart. Are you really that gullible?

Peace

Tim
Nah, I’m not the gullible type. Let’s throw out the *yellow rubber ducky *with the dirty bath water. 😃 Tim, here we go again, *another *example of ‘the philosophy of theology’ YEC style.

Geez, I already slam dunked ayellow rubber ducky before. Look below.
It’s the ‘rubber ducky’ that creationists use! An example would be a theologian instructing a science teacher what to tell their students about creation. Notice this is a UK website:
bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/ForTeachers
bcseweb.org.uk

Which results in “Creationism should be tackled in science lessons, schools told” etc:
truthinscience.org.uk/site/content/blogcategory/51/63/
http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/site/content/blogcategory/51/63/
Here’s my response to those creationists and I.D. folks found within the above two websites:
*Dr Hilary Leevers, of the Campaign for Science and Engineering, said science teachers would be teaching evolution not creationism and did not need a book to tell them how to “delicately handle controversy between scientific theory and belief”.

A spokesman for the Department for Schools said: "Creationism and intelligent design are not scientific theories nor testable as scientific fact – and have no place in the science curriculum.

“We advise science teachers that when questions about creationism come up in lessons, it provides an opportunity to explain or explore what makes a scientific theory.”*(Creationism should be tackled in science lessons, schools told By Richard Garner, Education Editor, Published: 06 October 2007)

news.independent.co.uk/education/education_news/article3033343.ece
http://news.independent.co.uk/education/education_news/article3033343.ece

Dr. Leevers and the spokesman for the Department for Schools, thank you for this fundamental aspect of higher human mental functioning. I support you both 100%.
 
Here’s the only source I could find on the Web. It has another translation.
online.chabotcollege.edu/shildreth/isls/2003program/galileo7.html

The Galileo quote that I posted was from the book, “Men of Science, Men of God” by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D. It has 101 bios of the greatest scientists of the past.
You can find it here:
fetchbook.info/Men_of_Science%2C_Men_of_God.html

Men of Science, Men of God (list of contemporaries)
answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/bios/default.asp
wildleafblower;3108861:
Tah Dah Man, I hope you read my message 780! As far as your quote above, “From the Divine Word, the Sacred Scripture and Nature did both alike proceed…” –Galileo Galilei, Galileo’s letters of 1613-15.
, I’d like YOU to direct me where Galileo made that statement. Check for GALILEO GALILEI LINCEO’s letters here:
Hit Correspondance then Letters:
Carteggio (indice) (vol. XX)
Carteggio (vol. XIX)
Carteggio 1574-1610 (vol.X)
Carteggio 1611-1613 (vol. XI)
Carteggio 1614-1619 (vol XII)
Carteggio 1620-1628 (vol. XIII)
Carteggio 1629-1632 (vol. XIV)
Carteggio 1633 (vol. XV)
Carteggio 1634-1636 (vol. XVI)
Carteggio 1637-1638 (vol. XVII)
Carteggio 1639-1642 (vol. XVIII)
http://moro.imss.fi.it/lettura/LetturaWEB.DLL?AZIONE=CATALOGO

moro.imss.fi.it/lettura/LetturaWEB.DLL?AZIONE=CATALOGO

http://moro.imss.fi.it/lettura/LetturaWEB.DLL?AZIONE=CATALOGO

http://moro.imss.fi.it/lettura/LetturaWEB.dll?AZIONE=APRITESTO&TESTO=Ef5&VOL=5
“From the Divine Word, the Sacred Scripture and Nature did both alike proceed…” –Galileo Galilei, Galileo’s letters of 1613-15.
The Italian physicist and astronomer, who stood for freedom of inquiry.
:rolleyes: Well, er, ta da man, you were the person that initially gave me the quote from Galileo’s letters of 1613-15. You flunked the test. A single short quote as you presented couldn’t have possibly existed within the span of three letters. I’ve already profided you evidence of it in my previous response to you. Ah, but now you wish to attack my intelligence by giving me a) an interpretation as well as b & c) nothing worthy of notation.
 
**COMMENT:

As a Catholic, it is difficult for me to ignore the deliberate ridicule sarcasm and even hostility of some participants posting on this thread. They should know that such tactics are considered by the Church at least as a grave sin against charity and, at the worst one of calumny. **

Orogony writes:
**Just use that sideways definition of above and below and it all makes sense! **
I agree. In its simplest terms the lateral formation of beds or strata inevitably produces a lateral chronology; not vertical as required by the principle of superposition.
]…each bed is younger than the bed beneath, but older than the bed above it. AGI
I wrote:
A particle below another one means that if you draw a horizontal line, any particle below the line is below any particle above the line. They can be miles apart.
The reason for saying they can be miles apart is to demonstrate that at any part of the bed or strata, the same phenomenon occurs. Depositing particles, in real life, are of course, only centimetres apart. In the diagram because of the current they succeed each other by a few seconds; indicated by the terms T1, T2, and T3 (T = time). The sorting of the sediments according to size is just as rapid. A bed will prograde as a function of the current velocity.

But the mechanics become more complex when multiple changes in current occur, because each change triggers off a new prograding bed on top of the bed already forming. The result, as shown in the video, is simultaneous vertical and lateral bed formation; vertical in the sense of beds forming on top of each other.

Such formations are contrary to the principle of superposition which requires one bed to form completely before the next one starts to form on top of it. See the URL below.

classzone.com/books/earth_science/terc/content/investigations/es2903/es2903page03.cfm

To my comment:
]…it should be noted that Berthault’s study of rock formation takes into account the paleohydraulic conditions of strata development.
Orogeny asked:
What rock formation? How many rocks has this guy actually studied? He did a flume study, not an investigation of rocks.
**The answer to his question is given in Berthault’s website www.sedimentology.fr where recent paleohydraulic studies are mentioned, i.e.

**Several formations of Cambrian Ordovician sandstones of the St.-Petersburg area.

The Upper Jurassic division of Mesozoic rocks making up the main range of the Crimean Mountains.****

Orogeny also exclaims:
Wow, prograding bedding. Again, why didn’t we poor, dumb geologists ever think of that? Oh, yeah, we did. Nothing original here.
**Why such a reaction? The professional sedimentologist/geologist juries (French and Russian) who examined the data would also have been famliar with prograding bedding, yet they considered the experiments gave original results.

One of Orogeny’s other remarks needs a comment:**
And of course, flow direction can almost always be determined. But you probably don’t want to admit that.
But one of the objects of a paleohydraulic analysis is to determine flow direction. Tthere is nothing to admit; nothing to hide.

Regarding my statement:
**This is where Guy Berthault`s work challenges the principle of superposition. It shows why no chronological conclusions can be drawn from strata alone. Based on the superposition principle, B would be wrongly said to be older. **
which was supported by a simple but clear diagram. Orogeny without either counter diagram or explanation states:
**…he is absolutely, demonstrably incorrect. It does show why no one should listen to Berthault. **
I have given my demonstration, in all equity should he not give his; preferably in schematic form?

Peter
 
**[msg. 389 from December 8, 2007 and msg. 818 still not yet answered by Dr. Peter M. J. Hess (drpmjhess)] **

Dr. Hess, you have claimed to be a Roman Catholic Theologian who publicly speaks on behalf of members that belong to the Roman Catholic Church.

I have every right and depend on you to correctly represent me in the public eye and adhere to the teachings found within the Vatican: Holy See website (1) that scholars and laypersons can freely access.

Do you support what the Pope (s), Bishops, and their Scientific Advisory Committee have stated and the teachings of the Church which are found in the Catechism, The new American Bible and its Compendium?

1.vatican.va/
http://www.vatican.va/
Why do you do that?

You know what-- never mind. I’ll just step back on this and walk away from it. It’s no use arguing anymore.
 
[Dec. 8, 2007 msg. 387 to Mr. Ex Nihilo] And you continue to stalk me from topic to topic in pursuit of me answering your questions. The problem is that if you don’t agree with what I have written, which is your problem not mine, you hound me. Leave me alone.
And I’ll make it very clear that I am concerned because I have asked the same question of Dr. Peter Hess three times (now it will be four) which is below and he never answers me. Futhermore, his use of sexual and drug innuendos in the past doesn’t seem appropriate in a public forum. This is one of the reasons why I keep asking the same question over and over again. I have never ever met a man that talks like that especially infront of the public, a man who calls himself Catholic. It does bother me. I’m sorry but that is the truth.
[msg. 389 from December 8, 2007 and msg. 818 still not yet answered by Dr. Peter M. J. Hess (drpmjhess)] Dr. Hess, you have claimed to be a Roman Catholic Theologian who publicly speaks on behalf of members that belong to the Roman Catholic Church. I have every right and depend on you to correctly represent me in the public eye and adhere to the teachings found within the Vatican: Holy See website (1) that scholars and laypersons can freely access. Do you support what the Pope (s), Bishops, and their Scientific Advisory Committee have stated and the teachings of the Church which are found in the Catechism, The new American Bible and its Compendium?
1.vatican.va/
http://www.vatican.va/
 
[Dec. 8, 2007 msg. 387 to Mr. Ex Nihilo] And you continue to stalk me from topic to topic in pursuit of me answering your questions. The problem is that if you don’t agree with what I have written, which is your problem not mine, you hound me. Leave me alone.
sigh

I’m not stalking you wildleafblower-- yet another accusation.

Anyway can you skip the innuendo and just provide a link to the words which Dr. Hess supposedly said. Consequently, if you think I’m ‘stalking’ you, then I’m starting to suspect that whatever you preceived Dr. Hess supposedly saying may in fact be nothing more than a figment of your imagination.

I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt though. However, if you’ve made yet another accusation against someone here without any reasonable cause, I’m going to report your post and request your suspension.

I realize this is up to the moderators here, but I can at least offer my opinion on the matter.

Now can you provide me with a link to Dr. Hess’ words please where he apparently used “sexual and drug innuendos”?

I missed this before and I would like to read this for myself thank you.
 
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