Thank you for you time everyone

[TamaraS]

Fredricks:

We have a definitive guide. You rely on traditons from sources you cannot identify while we trust the writings of the men who knew Jesus. You really should join the foundations thread, I know it is long but is Truth worth it?

When you say that you trust the writings of the men who knew Jesus, I’m assuming that you are talking about the New Testament writings, and not the Early Church Fathers. If you are referring to the scriptures themselves, then how do you know that, take just the Gospel of Matthew for instance, was actually written by Matthew himself, and therefore true?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

jim1130:

Peace.

I think it is a call for scriptural anarchy (interpret as you wish because we are all guided by the Holy Spirit) or we can all create our own churches.

Peace.

I think this is an interesting interpretation. When they picked up stones because they said Christ has made Himself God, that was a problem because how could there be a monarchy (God the Father is in charge) and Jesus Christ also be God? This would mean that the power is split into at least two places. Jesus’s defense, quoting from Psalms that “you are all gods” didn’t make it any better.

In the particular case, Christ said that people who are not officially members of the same club, will receive a reward for their kind acts in His name. It never occurred to me that Christ was indicating something that woiuld be seen as “spiritual anarchy” but it just may be an apt metaphor.

What I think is more important than whether we each think we know what is right for us via the Holy Spirit or some deceitful vision thereof, is that we learn to advise and abide by each other without being judges. It is when we judge each other (saying “judging actions” is too often a cover phrase IMO) that we truly “play God” against each other, and by doing so we bring judgment against ourselves.

Alan

edit>> the Good Samaritan is another great example of religious anarchy. Christ is saying essentially that outsiders doing good deeds are preferably to members of our own religion failing to do the same.

 

[Fredricks]

Eden:

The man that founded your religion is even further from the Truth than Luther was. What is the church you go to again?

Please don’t tell me the founder of your Church was Jesus, by the way. He only founded one Church and it wasn’t the “denomination” you belong to.

Jesus. I follow the words of the men who actually knew him through the Holy Bible

 

[Eden]

Fredricks:

Jesus. I follow the words of the men who actually knew him through the Holy Bible

Why are you avoiding answering which church you attend?

 

[DeFide]

Fredricks:

Jesus. I follow the words of the men who actually knew him through the Holy Bible

I guess the Old Testament isn’t part of your Bible then.

 

[VociMike]

Fredricks:

We have a definitive guide. You rely on traditons from sources you cannot identify while we trust the writings of the men who knew Jesus.

What authority assures you that you have a definitive guide? It is the very same authority that assures us of the truth of Sacred Tradition.

You simply cannot prove the inspired nature of the bible without reference to the Church united around the See of Rome.

 

[VociMike]

Fredricks:

Jesus. I follow the words of the men who actually knew him through the Holy Bible

Says who?

 

[estesbob]

Fredricks:

Jesus. I follow the words of the men who actually knew him through the Holy Bible

And i held Jesus in my hands this morning and then followed his instructions to eat his body and drink his blood. You, OTH, believe that Jesus came to earth to found a book and Guttenberg is co-redeemer with Jesus.

 

[petra]

Fredricks:

Jesus. I follow the words of the men who actually knew him through the Holy Bible

Perhaps you missed my post of about an hour before yours. For your convenience, here is it is again:

A number of men knew Jesus. Why do you trust in a certain set of writings of a selected few who knew Him? Why do you trust in a set of writings by a man who only came to know Jesus after He was resurrected? Why do you trust in a New Testament book with uncertain authorship? You do so because, whether you know it or not, you presuppose the reliability and infallability of Sacred Tradition. Ironically, sola scriptura depends upon the reality of Sacred Tradition as a definitive guide.

If you throw out Sacred Tradition, you must throw out Sacred Scripture.

petra

 

[havemercy]

Two weeks later.

“…Oh. Hi. I’m back. ”

 

[kamz]

mumof5:

I’ve enjoyed being with you for the last year but I have decided to leave the Catholic church and get a believer’s baptism in a church that does not weigh it’s members down with man-made rules that cannot be found in the Bible and legalism. Just wanted to let you know. God is good and I have never known Him like this before.

How Old Is Your Church?
If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as ‘Church of the Nazarene,” “Pentecostal Gospel.” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church (Yep, I’ll take the church JESUS founded) you’d have to be CRAZY to leave the church that JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD FOUNDED) :yup:

 

[Fredricks]

petra:

Perhaps you missed my post of about an hour before yours. For your convenience, here is it is again:

A number of men knew Jesus. Why do you trust in a certain set of writings of a selected few who knew Him? Why do you trust in a set of writings by a man who only came to know Jesus after He was resurrected? Why do you trust in a New Testament book with uncertain authorship? You do so because, whether you know it or not, you presuppose the reliability and infallability of Sacred Tradition. Ironically, sola scriptura depends upon the reality of Sacred Tradition as a definitive guide.

If you throw out Sacred Tradition, you must throw out Sacred Scripture.

petra

Please come over to the foundations thread.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I love the entertainment when religious people tell each other, “my God is bigger than your God.”

Alan

 

[LilyM]

Not bigger, Alan, just older

 

[melbourne_guy]

you’ll be back

 

[Liberian]

mumof5:

I’ve enjoyed being with you for the last year but I have decided to leave the Catholic church and get a believer’s baptism in a church that does not weigh it’s members down with man-made rules that cannot be found in the Bible and legalism. Just wanted to let you know. God is good and I have never known Him like this before.

Mum of 5,

Speaking as a Catholic I would like to say how sorry I am to hear that you are leaving the Catholic Church. Speaking as a former Protestant (Episcopal, Missouri Synod Lutheran, and Southern Baptist), I will affirm that God does indeed work through the Protestant denominations and I hope He blesses you richly while you are there. While you will naturally want to “stake out your territory” in your new church and amplify on the (supposed) errors of the Catholic Church, I would ask you please to keep an open mind and heart towards Catholicism.

Please note also that many supposed “Bible-only” churches still have a lot of man-made rules that are not found in the Bible; the Southern Baptist prohibition against alcohol springs to mind.

It is also my experience that Evangelical churches practice what the Catholic Church preaches regarding people’s lifestyles. The emphasis in both cases should be not so much on what you do as on what sort of person you are, and the Catholic Church is regularly faulted by Protestants for spending more time on what you do. Possibly your complaint about burdensome man-made non-Biblical rules stems from an improper emphasis here.

I wish you God’s blessings wherever He leads you. I will also make no secret of the fact that I sincerely hope that He leads you back to the Catholic Church, but that is a matter between you and Him.

• Liberian

 

[mumof5]

Um…wow. I NEVER expected more than a handful of posts, if that. I can’t possibly begin to respond to all this but some of you make some very pertinent and spot on comments and observations while others make assumptions totally untrue.

I have felt spiritually STARVED in the Catholic church for over two years now. It was this, and my desire to serve God rather than worry about serving a church made of people, that drove my search for something else. I’ve been to something else before, before I came to the Catholic church. I’m in a good position to compare.

I have been very disappointed in some things that have happened, that is true. I have always had major theological disagreements with the Catholic church. I have been to a number of different Catholic churches in my city trying to find a place. I feel an increasing emptiness in the church. I have tried hard to understand my faith, following it nearly killed me. Literally. And when it did, no-one was there. By their fruits you will know them, so says the Bible. Why is it that when my third child was born (when we were attending a Protestant church), with no complications, that everyone was there and bringing us meals, etc? When my fifth child almost killed me(back in the Catholic church), no-one was there. Oh yes, one Catholic friend visited me in hospital. One called me. Who was there afterwards? The Protestant friends. They were the only ones who cared. And the priests? Oh yes…all five of them I tried to confess to when my husband had a vasectomy. No problem! (My husband is not a Catholic btw so had no issue with doing so).

I have never agreed with some of the Catholic Churches teachings. I won’t list them all here. I’ve tried to understand them. Well, it’s time to face the music, stop being a hypocrite, and be true to what I believe. I’m not changing churches for denomination. I’m not aligning myself with any denomination because I am Christian. I follow Christ, not a church. I’m not going there to ‘feel good and have fun’. I’m going there because I want to have a relationship with Jesus. Yes, if you believe in the real presence you may not be able to see this.

I cannot stomach going to Mass, knowing no-one cares or would notice I wasn’t there, with my five kids knowing it makes us look like such a good Catholic family when I know my husband has a vasectomy. I refuse to be a hypocrite.

I will look at the things that have been suggested but I do believe that there is no church that has the whole truth. But that doesn’t matter. It’s really very basic. Jesus died for us, we are saved by faith through grace, not by works although works come from faith (faith without works being dead). Jesus has saved us from our sins and nothing we can do can save ourselves. NOTHING. Otherwise why did he do it?

Yes, I’ve always had my own ideas on different doctrines. Why are my kids the only ones that can’t say a Hail Mary? Well, it does say immediately before the Lord’s Pray not to pray repititiously. I’ve always taught my children that prayers should come from the heart. I really don’t think I can call myself a Catholic.

Everyone in my family wants to go to this church so I guess I’ll follow.

For those who think this is the easy choice - it isn’t. I know several people who will stop having anything to do with me when I make this move. And Ihave been attending this church for a while. Then again, I probably won’t notice. Anyone who does that isn’t a real friend anyway. And I suppose at least if I give them something concrete to hit me over the head with I can shrug and give it to them since I’m pretty used to being told how I should have been at this rosary service, etc anyway.

I am very familiar with church history. I know all about the reformation. In fact, my daughter has been studying this herself the last few weeks. Including the reasons for the reformation.

I really do appreciate all your posts while at the same time being blown away by how many there are. It is good to have the food for thought. Thanks for the time you have spent responding. While I don’t have time to respond to everyone be sure that I will be checking out the links and things suggested.

 

[Fredricks]

mumof5:

Um…wow. I NEVER expected more than a handful of posts, if that. I can’t possibly begin to respond to all this but some of you make some very pertinent and spot on comments and observations while others make assumptions totally untrue.

I have felt spiritually STARVED in the Catholic church for over two years now. It was this, and my desire to serve God rather than worry about serving a church made of people, that drove my search for something else. I’ve been to something else before, before I came to the Catholic church. I’m in a good position to compare.

I have been very disappointed in some things that have happened, that is true. I have always had major theological disagreements with the Catholic church. I have been to a number of different Catholic churches in my city trying to find a place. I feel an increasing emptiness in the church. I have tried hard to understand my faith, following it nearly killed me. Literally. And when it did, no-one was there. By their fruits you will know them, so says the Bible. Why is it that when my third child was born, with no complications, that everyone was there and bringing us meals, etc? When my fifth child almost killed me, no-one was there. Oh yes, one Catholic friend visited me in hospital. One called me. Who was there afterwards? The Protestant friends. They were the only ones who cared. And the priests? Oh yes…all five of them I tried to confess to when my husband had a vasectomy. No problem! (My husband is not a Catholic btw so had no issue with doing so).

I have never agreed with some of the Catholic Churches teachings. I won’t list them all here. I’ve tried to understand them. Well, it’s time to face the music, stop being a hypocrite, and be true to what I believe. I’m not changing churches for denomination. I’m not aligning myself with any denomination because I am Christian. I follow Christ, not a church. I’m not going there to ‘feel good and have fun’. I’m going there because I want to have a relationship with Jesus. Yes, if you believe in the real presence you may not be able to see this.

I cannot stomach going to Mass, knowing no-one cares or would notice I wasn’t there, with my five kids knowing it makes us look like such a good Catholic family when I know my husband has a vasectomy. I refuse to be a hypocrite.

I will look at the things that have been suggested but I do believe that there is no church that has the whole truth. But that doesn’t matter. It’s really very basic. Jesus died for us, we are saved by faith through grace, not by works although works come from faith (faith without works being dead). Jesus has saved us from our sins and nothing we can do can save ourselves. NOTHING. Otherwise why did he do it?

Yes, I’ve always had my own ideas on different doctrines. Why are my kids the only ones that can’t say a Hail Mary? Well, it does say immediately before the Lord’s Pray not to pray repititiously. I’ve always taught my children that prayers should come from the heart. I really don’t think I can call myself a Catholic.

Everyone in my family wants to go to this church so I guess I’ll follow.

For those who think this is the easy choice - it isn’t. I know several people who will stop having anything to do with me when I make this move. And Ihave been attending this church for a while. Then again, I probably won’t notice. Anyone who does that isn’t a real friend anyway. And I suppose at least if I give them something concrete to hit me over the head with I can shrug and give it to them since I’m pretty used to being told how I should have been at this rosary service, etc anyway.

I am very familiar with church history. I know all about the reformation. In fact, my daughter has been studying this herself the last few weeks. Including the reasons for the reformation.

I really do appreciate all your posts while at the same time being blown away by how many there are. It is good to have the food for thought. Thanks for the time you have spent responding. While I don’t have time to respond to everyone be sure that I will be checking out the links and things suggested.

spoken from the heart.
I am sorry if my inability to shut up detracted from you. I just wanted to shout praises about your choice and I know that is not what most everyone wants. Who cannot respect a mothers decision?

 

[mumof5]

Liberian:

Mum of 5,

Speaking as a Catholic I would like to say how sorry I am to hear that you are leaving the Catholic Church. Speaking as a former Protestant (Episcopal, Missouri Synod Lutheran, and Southern Baptist), I will affirm that God does indeed work through the Protestant denominations and I hope He blesses you richly while you are there. While you will naturally want to “stake out your territory” in your new church and amplify on the (supposed) errors of the Catholic Church, I would ask you please to keep an open mind and heart towards Catholicism.

Please note also that many supposed “Bible-only” churches still have a lot of man-made rules that are not found in the Bible; the Southern Baptist prohibition against alcohol springs to mind.

It is also my experience that Evangelical churches practice what the Catholic Church preaches regarding people’s lifestyles. The emphasis in both cases should be not so much on what you do as on what sort of person you are, and the Catholic Church is regularly faulted by Protestants for spending more time on what you do. Possibly your complaint about burdensome man-made non-Biblical rules stems from an improper emphasis here.

I wish you God’s blessings wherever He leads you. I will also make no secret of the fact that I sincerely hope that He leads you back to the Catholic Church, but that is a matter between you and Him.

• Liberian

Thank you Liberian. I agree with your sentiments. I do not bear any ill feeling towards the Catholic church. It’s another Christian path. I’m sure there are Catholics who are better Christians than many Protestants and many Protestants that are better Christians than some Catholics.

I am NOT entering the new church with a decision to believe or follow everything they teach. Any prohibitions on alcohol will be ignored Though they did have real wine for their communion (and a nice wine it was too ;-), so I doubt they will have problems with alcohol in moderation.

I remember a friend getting stuck into me about how I should have been at a particular healing Mass one weekday evening. I didn’t go as I don’t believe I have to go to Mass to get healing and God can heal me when and where he sees fit.

I have no doubt that the Catholic church in the US is much more vibrant than it is here. Population maybe.

 

[mumof5]

Fredricks:

spoken from the heart.
I am sorry if my inability to shut up detracted from you. I just wanted to shout praises about your choice and I know that is not what most everyone wants. Who cannot respect a mothers decision?

Thank you Fredricks. Right now, I find that I have a choice between remaining in a church where I am feeling at a loss and where my kids faith is being killed - or going to a church where their faith is being nutured and they are excited about Jesus. I don’t expect the church to be perfect. But it’s working well so far.