that does it for me

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What is in the Gospels only applies to those that have read the Gospels. Those that came across the frozen bridge that connected Russia and North America did not have one single bit of knowledge of Christ and it not possible for them to know consciencely. To believe that God would not do the right thing and judge them based on their life is just ludicrous. Don’t non-baby baptizers believe that God will do the right thing if a child dies before the age of accountability and/or reason? What make a child any different then a person that was cut off from christianity thru no fault of their own.

In order for an Islamic to be held accountable, he has to be exposed to the New Testament in it’s entrety. How many Islamists have been made aware of the NT in it’s entirety?
 
Atemi said:
No. I am not misunderstanding. I nowhere said that.

What I am saying is this:

If a Hindu ever asks a Catholic if the Church teaches that he can be saved as a Hindu, the Catholic can only emphatically say “Sure.”

This is not the Apostolic method.

The Apostolic method is “repent and be baptised.”

Merely telling someone that “the odds” are better that they will be saved if they are Catholic is not evangelization.
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That is not what is being said or taught by the Church, and it in no way represents how Catholic missionaries and evangelists do their work.
 
It is important to remember that the Catholic Church also rightly teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. This statement is no different from your belief that only Christians are saved except that it appears to be somewhat more narrow than even your belief.

It is important to look at the entirety of the Catholic position on this matter. What we believe concerning those outside the Church cannot be reduced to simplistic statements in the way that you have presented them.
 
Church_Militant said:
So then according to you theological gymnasts, (who have all the answers just from your reading of the Bible…) just because some people somewhere cannot read the Bible for themselves and have no Bibles, nor “witnesses”, they are doomed to hell?
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No.
Let’s have a look at what the New Testament says…
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Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.
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Anyone that comes to God (there is only one God) MUST believe that He (that specific, one God) is.

It does not say that one must believe that a god is.

No.
Acts Of Apostles 17:27 That they should seek God, if happily they may feel after him or find him, although he be not far from every one of us: (Especially relevant)
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Yes. Paul said that God distributed people as He did so they SHOULD seek Him.

I agree. We all should seek Him, but we all do not.

But we must not forget Paul’s definitive statement at the end. He continued:

Act 17:27 “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent”

All men everywhere are commanded by God to repent.

That is part of the Gospel message that we are all called to tell everyone everywhere.

To imply that a Muslim or Hindu can repent and still remain a Muslim or Hindu is very dangerous for every Muslim or Hindu to hear and believe.
It’s too bad that your theology does not align with the Word of God and in fact presumes to tell all the world who God will and will not save and what those who never see a Bible are going to face.
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If God commands all people everywhere to repent, that means they all have something to repent of.

That means they are all sinners just as God’s Word and all our own experiences prove.

God says clearly that He will judge all sinners and sin.

Not to warn those in a burning house that they are in danger is not in my character.
This is the kind of presumption that results from people saying that they know all there is to know about God just from reading the Bible. This is also pretty much the same Pharisaical attitude that is displayed (and condemned) all through the New Testament. There is no mercy nor compassion in it.
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I would say there is even less compassion in letting blind men walk off a cliff without warning.

If we fear they will be offended at our warning, then we cannot say we have any real compassion at all.
 
allischalmers said:
Just when I was started to think that all the Catholics on this forum were right about the Catholic Church this happened.

I was listening to CAL and a called ask the question, "Will people of other religions go to heaven. Rosalind Moss answered his question and her answer really shocked me. She said that as long as they lived up to the graces that God has given them, no matter weather they are a Muslim , a Hindu, a Buddhist, or a Jew that they will go to heaven. Unbibleical to say that least.

That totally changes my mind about the Catholic Church.

Allischalmers
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hola,

except for invincible ignorance Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, there is no salvation outside the Church… this person is clearly incorrect…

que Dios te bendiga
 
Jesus can act outside of His Church and His Sacraments to save anyone He wants to save. That is His perogative.

Shall we say that, because these fortunate individuals by-passed the Church and the Sacraments that they were saved by being pagans?

Certainly not. All salvation is from Christ - both within the Church, and outside of it.

That having been said, your Hindu, who walks up to a Catholic to ask how he can be saved, needs to be invited to attend RCIA and to come to Mass, because in his case, he has begun to suspect that salvation comes from Christ through His Church - and now that he has begun to suspect this, he is no longer under the protection of “invincible ignorance.” His ignorance has now become vincible, meaning that he now needs to become fully educated in the teachings of the Church, and he needs to become a Catholic.

But the Hindu who never meets any Catholics and never hears of Jesus or of the Catholic Church is still safe in the cocoon of invincible ignorance, and he has the possibility (though not the certainty) of being saved directly by Christ through some extraordinary means.
 
Pax said:
It is important to remember that the Catholic Church also rightly teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. This statement is no different from your belief that only Christians are saved except that it appears to be somewhat more narrow than even your belief.

It is important to look at the entirety of the Catholic position on this matter. What we believe concerning those outside the Church cannot be reduced to simplistic statements in the way that you have presented them.
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Then let me ask you outright:

If a Hindu asked you if the Church said that he can be saved as a Hindu, what do you say?

Please keep the OP in mind: Yes or No?

If yes, then why get on me for repeating Catholic teaching?

If no, then you deny the response given in the OP.
 
Atemi said:
Telling idolators that they can be saved by just being who they already are is extremely dangerous and alien to the purpose of the Gospel, IMV.

There is no need to preach that message to non-Christians because they already hear that message from their own faiths.
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This is not what is under question. No one is suggesting that we send missionaries out into the world “telling idolators” that they are “okay” in their own religious beliefs. What would be the point?

If I have the opportunity to proclaim the gospel to someone who is Hindu or Muslim, then I take that opportunity.

However, we are talking about those who have NO opportunity to hear the gospel in the course of their lives…a situation hard for us in the west to grasp, but not every country is as wealthy or as technologically advanced as we are. The gospel is not so easily communicated in some countries…particulary where there is strong opposition.

So, while some narrow-minded fundamentalists may be quick to send these folks to hell, God is more merciful. We have to break out of our small ways of thinking because we serve a Big God. Big God.

This is significant.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Atemi said:
Then let me ask you outright:

If a Hindu asked you if the Church said that he can be saved as a Hindu, what do you say?

Please keep the OP in mind: Yes or No?
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We would have to explain to the Hindu that, if he will be saved, it will be by Jesus Christ. We would praise God that He has seen fit to lead this particular Hindu to ask that particular question of me, a Catholic.

Now that he has heard something about Jesus, he should come and learn more about Jesus, by joining an RCIA program.
If no, then you deny the response given in the OP.
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Which is okay, because the statement given there was rather clumsy, and very confusing - not wrong, but very incomplete.
 
JoeyWarren said:
What is in the Gospels only applies to those that have read the Gospels.
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The Gospel (the Good News) is not bound to the gospel accounts written in Scripture.

The Gospel is a message that is preached and then believed for salvation.
Those that came across the frozen bridge that connected Russia and North America did not have one single bit of knowledge of Christ and it not possible for them to know consciencely. To believe that God would not do the right thing and judge them based on their life is just ludicrous.
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God will judge everyone according to their lives. If you know of any that crossed the landbridge that were sinless, then you know way more than I.
Don’t non-baby baptizers believe that God will do the right thing if a child dies before the age of accountability and/or reason?
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What make a child any different then a person that was cut off from christianity thru no fault of their own.
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Are those ignorant of the Christian message that crossed that landbridge of the age of accountability and reason?

Sin is the difference.

Nobody is made to sin…even those who never heard of Christ.

They all heard, however, of God…and they all know about sin.
In order for an Islamic to be held accountable, he has to be exposed to the New Testament in it’s entrety.
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Is that what the Apostles did?

How did you come to this conclusion?
 
God will judge everyone according to their lives. If you know of any that crossed the landbridge that were sinless, then you know way more than I.
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They were no more sinful than you or I right now.
 
Are those ignorant of the Christian message that crossed that landbridge of the age of accountability and reason?
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Sin is the difference.
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Nobody is made to sin…even those who never heard of Christ.
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If nobody is made to sin, then how can you assume that those that crossed the bridge were sinful?
They all heard, however, of God…and they all know about sin.
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Did they? If they crossed the bridge and had children and never mentioned the Judaic God to the children, then the children have never heard of God.
 
Atemi,

One last point should be made…we are not saying that a person is saved because they are a Muslim, a Hindu, or some other non-Christian. Moreover, this is a point that would be made to them in evangelizing them.

Catholics merely contend that God may choose extraordinary means to save those that have lived as non-Christians during their entire lives. We leave that up to God’s mercy and love, but we in no way believe that those folks are saved in any other way then by the merits of Jesus passion, death, and resurrection.

If someone who is properly evangelized, knows and understands the truth, yet chooses to reject Jesus then they cannot be saved. That message is also given to those outside the Church.

I extend the same comments to you and my non-Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ but with the appropriate modifications. You have a share in one faith, one Lord, and one baptism. From the Catholic perspective you are Christian, but you are in an imperfect communion with the Church. I hope and pray that you will see the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church. I also believe that if you come to the realization that the Catholic Church is the true Christian Church of Christ then you are compelled to join the Church. If you knowingly rejected the body of Christ on earth, that is the Catholic Church, even though you knew it to be true, then you would be in the same position as a non-believer.

On the other hand, if for some reason excusable by God, you could not see that the Catholic Church is the true Church then in good conscience you would not join her, and God in his mercy would not hold you accountable for that. God is loving and merciful and he desires that all men be saved.
 
Atemi said:
Then your answer is yes.

Thank you.

Hindus can be saved as Hindus.
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Not “as Hindus.” By Christ.

And like I said, if he’s asking me about his salvation, then he’s already being called by God to become a Catholic, and will go to Hell if he deliberately and consciously ignores this call.
They already believe this.
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I’m not aware of any Hindus who believe that Jesus is saving them. I’m not even sure what their concept of the afterlife is, or whether they are even aware of the existence of Heaven - I think they believe in reincarnation.
 
Randy_Carson said:
This is not what is under question. No one is suggesting that we send missionaries out into the world “telling idolators” that they are “okay” in their own religious beliefs. What would be the point?

If I have the opportunity to proclaim the gospel to someone who is Hindu or Muslim, then I take that opportunity.

However, we are talking about those who have NO opportunity to hear the gospel in the course of their lives…a situation hard for us in the west to grasp, but not every country is as wealthy or as technologically advanced as we are. The gospel is not so easily communicated in some countries…particulary where there is strong opposition.
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So no Jews, Muslims, or Hindus living in the West can be saved even if living up to the graces that God has given them?

No Jews in Israel can be saved without becoming Catholic (or Christian)?
So, while some narrow-minded fundamentalists may be quick to send these folks to hell, God is more merciful.
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Name calling is not necessary or charitable, Randy.
 
Is that what the Apostles did?
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How did you come to this conclusion?
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Different situation with the Apostles. The Apostles heard the word of God via Oral Tradition. They only knew what they had been taught verbally/.

Different situation for those after the apostles. Those after the Apostles heard in full based on what was available.

Different situation now. We have the bound in one binding an entire written word of God. All is now made available, so the scriptures in it’s entirety applies, not bits and pieces.
 
Atemi said:
The Gospel (the Good News) is not bound to the gospel accounts written in Scripture.

The Gospel is a message that is preached and then believed for salvation.
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What?!?

You mean we don’t have to hand out pocket New Testaments translated into the appropriate language groups, and expect each sinful heather to come to faith alone by the Bible alone? :nope:

Wow. Who knew that in this age of sola scriptura evangelicalism that the Gospel was still being presented in the time-tested manner of the Apostles…by word of mouth?

This IS Significant! :dancing:
 
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