that does it for me

[Atemi]

Not “as Hindus.” By Christ.

So you will tell him that if he is saved after living a life as a Hindu, it will just happen that he was be saved by Christ…but he was still a Hindu for life.

And like I said, if he’s asking me about his salvation, then he’s already being called by God to become a Catholic, and will go to Hell if he ignores this call.

Ah.

So if a Hindu asks you what the questioner asked Ms. Moss, then he is Hellbound if he then does not become a Catholic?

So now you are changing your position within one post by saying that he now cannot be saved if he remains Hindu after meeting you.

How did you come to this conclusion?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Is that what the Apostles did?

How did you come to this conclusion?

It sort of like becoming Catholic. You have to be given full disclosure into the Bible in it’s entirety then you either accept it or reject it.

 

[jmcrae]

So no Jews, Muslims, or Hindus living in the West can be saved even if living up to the graces that God has given them?

One of the graces that God has given to everyone who lives in the West is their friendly neighborhood Catholic Church.

The question God will ask is, “What use did you make of the gifts and opportunities that I dropped right into your lap?”

 

[Dauphin]

So no Jews, Muslims, or Hindus living in the West can be saved even if living up to the graces that God has given them?

No Jews in Israel can be saved without becoming Catholic (or Christian)?

You’re complicating a teaching which is really quite straight-forward:

This affirmation “Outside the Church there is no salvation”] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” (CCC 847).

If a non-catholic meets these conditions, they may achieve salvation. If they do not, they will not achieve salvation.

I recommend you read this:

Can Outsiders Be Insiders?

 

[Atemi]

What?!?

You mean we don’t have to hand out pocket New Testaments translated into the appropriate language groups, and expect each sinful heather to come to faith alone by the Bible alone? :nope:

No.

Wow. Who knew that in this age of sola scriptura evangelicalism that the Gospel was still being presented in the time-tested manner of the Apostles…by word of mouth?

Yes. Exactly

Word of mouth.

I cannot be blamed if you do not understand what Sola Scriptura means.

Like I said, the Gospel is a message that is preached, in ANY fashion, that one is saved by believing.

 

[Atemi]

One of the graces that God has given to everyone who lives in the West is their friendly neighborhood Catholic Church.

The question God will ask is, “What use did you make of the gifts and opportunities that I dropped right into your lap?”

You did not answer the question.

This seems to be a difficulty here.

 

[Church_Militant]

Know it alls proclaiming that they know how God will deal with everyone else.

If a person encounters a Catholic, then pretty quickly they will no longer be ignorant, so Atemi’s whole post does not apply.

I suggest that anyone who is really interested in this radio program go to the CAL link and listen to the actual show in question before pronouncing anything concerning Ms. Moss.

AC and Atemi wish this was what was meant, as do most anti-Catholics, because then they can run around and make the kind of remarks they have so far, and ignorant people will believe them. And those same ignorant people will be misled by them.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So no Jews, Muslims, or Hindus living in the West can be saved even if living up to the graces that God has given them?

No Jews in Israel can be saved without becoming Catholic (or Christian)?

It depends on what they knew and and what opportunities they were given to accept or reject the gospel. Only God can judge the situations of a person’s life experiences to determine their culpability.

I’m certainly not qualified…are you?

Don’t misunderstand…the Church recognizes the responsibility to evangelize, but there are billions of non-Christians in the world…a few will get past us.

Name calling is not necessary or charitable, Randy.

If the shoe fits… Kidding…just kidding, here.

I was not singling you or anyone else out in this instance.

You know as well as I do that there ARE narrow-minded fundamentalists who would condemn both you and me simply because we do not use the KJV only or because our wives wear (gasp!) pants, or what have you. We can speak of the generic stereotypical fundamentalist precisely because we all have some familiarity with their way of judging and condemning others.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Pax]

Atemi,

Our belief as properly or poorly presented on this thread can be summed up and supported by the following scripture.

In Romans 2:14-16 Paul says,

When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

I hope this helps.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Atemi, I will ask you the same question I ask all non-catholic (more than likely an anti-catholic) newbies.

WHY ARE YOU HERE?.

AND

WHAT IS YOUR GOAL?

And answer truthfully, you are now under the penalty of one of the Ten Commandments.

 

[jmcrae]

So you will tell him that if he is saved after living a life as a Hindu, it will just happen that he was be saved by Christ…but he was still a Hindu for life.

Just like St. Dismas, the “good thief” who stole Heaven right out from under Death’s very nose, yes - St. Dismas was a thief and a rogue his entire life, right up until the very moment of death, and at his death he went directly to Heaven, because Christ chose that particular moment to save him, and he chose to allow Christ to save him.

So now you are changing your position within one post by saying that he now cannot be saved if he remains Hindu after meeting you.

Because he now knows that it is Christ who saves us, through His Church. (I haven’t changed my position, by the way. I’m still saying what I said before.)

How did you come to this conclusion?

Because I know that God calls us to do our best with what we have.

After meeting me and speaking with me, this Hindu now has something he didn’t have before - knowledge of Christ and His Church. He now has a duty to respond, and do something with this knowledge that he now has, that he didn’t have before.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Atemi,

Our belief as properly or poorly presented on this thread can be summed up and supported by the following scripture.

In Romans 2:14-16 Paul says,

When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

I hope this helps.

That’s it, I was trying to find that one verse. Whew!

 

[Randy_Carson]

No.

Yes. Exactly

Word of mouth.

I cannot be blamed if you do not understand what Sola Scriptura means.

Nor can you be blamed if you do not understand why sola scriptura is false.

It’s what you have been taught.

You see? Like the Hindus and the Muslims, your own culpability is for God to judge.

They cannot accept Christ…you cannot accept “Rome.”

Ironically, Protestants are quick to condemn those who have not accepted Christ, but then they chafe when Catholics suggest that there is “no salvation outside the Church.”

Same basic concept…ignorance of the truth. It’s just a matter of degree, isn’t it?

Should we be as hard-lined toward non-Catholics as most fundamentalists are toward non-Christians?

It only seems fair, doesn’t it?

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[jmcrae]

You did not answer the question.

Not even God knows, yet, who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell. He Himself has not even made this decision, yet.

I certainly am not qualified to make any predictions about anybody except myself.

 

[MikeDunphy]

I was listening to CAL and a called ask the question, "Will people of other religions go to heaven…

I think your concern is reasonable, but how do you interpret Romans 2:13-15?

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

I take this to mean that doers of the law are pleasing to God, even if they are ignorant of the true Faith. Am I mistaken?

 

[Atemi]

Not even God knows, yet, who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell. He Himself has not even made this decision, yet.

My goodness.

God surely does know. That’s why he is omniscient.

There is no “yet” in God’s mind.

 

[Atemi]

Atemi, I will ask you the same question I ask all non-catholic (more than likely an anti-catholic) newbies.

There is no reason for name-calling and for being uncharitable.

WHY ARE YOU HERE?.

AND

WHAT IS YOUR GOAL?

And answer truthfully, you are now under the penalty of one of the Ten Commandments.

This thread is not about me. Please refer back to the OP.

It is against the rules to post off topic.

 

[cpayne]

If anyone (especially non-Catholic Christians) wants to read a really nice presentation and summary of the Catholic position FROM A NON-CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN (C.S. Lewis, no less), I would recommend Chapter 15 of “The Last Battle,” the last of the Narnia books, in which Aslan admits into Heaven a man who in Narnia would be the equivalent of a Moslem.

As far as motivation to spread the Gospel, I would assume the motivation would be the same as it always has been: that people who have not heard the Good News need to hear it.

Can a Hindu be saved “as a Hindu”? Let me ask a different question: Can a Christian be saved “as a Christian”? I would argue that the answer is no in both cases. People are saved by the judgment of Christ. After all, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life–no one comes to the Father except through Me.” He did NOT say, “Becoming an explicitly confessing Christian is the way, the truth, and” etc. “Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say?” seems to apply to people who explicitly confess Christ as Lord, does it not?

Wasn’t it John Wesley who was dying and someone said to him, “Soon you will go to receive your reward.” He turned away and said, “I go to receive mercy.”

 

[Atemi]

I take this to mean that doers of the law are pleasing to God, even if they are ignorant of the true Faith. Am I mistaken?

The problem comes in when we realize:

Jam 2:10 “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”

This is the purpose of the Gospel and Christ’s sacrifice.

Rom 3:20 “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”

 

[Dauphin]

The problem comes in when we realize:

Jam 2:10 “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”
This is the purpose of the Gospel and Christ’s sacrifice.

Rom 3:20 “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”

Can Outsiders Be Insiders?