that does it for me

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But the lay Catholic cannot appeal to the Magisterium because it is not available to appeal to.
It is; where do you get the impression it isn’t?
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But that is not available to Catholics now
**Where again did you get the impression it isn’t?
We have another devout Catholic on another thread insisting that the Catholic Church does not teach that a literal Adam and Eve are the parents of all humanity.
They say this because of their private interpretation of the Catechism.
Let’s make something clear here–the Church can be silent on many things, and let the person be open enough to see how things are. Those that are held as dogma are the ones that are truths that cannot be dispelled, or else are critical to the faith. I think you are confusing dogma for doctrine here, and interchange between the two.
 
Here’s my reasoning:

The Church is the repository of all revealed Truth.

Whoever is saved, is saved by this revealed Truth through Christ; It is through Christ’s sacrifice that the mere ability to be saved is possible.

Am I saying that all other religions are saved simply because they follow their own laws? No. I’m saying that it may be possible because I do not know for certain, with my own knowledge, that they are damned. Going on:

To honestly believe in this Truth places one inside the Church.

It is possible for someone to only have part of the Truth; Which would make them partially in the Church, not fully in it. At the same time they are not fully outside of it, either.

It may be possible for whatever amount of Truth a person has can save them. I say “may” because we simply do not know with certainty.

It also follows that we do not know the minimum amount of the Truth that is necessary for salvation either.

A person who comes into contact with this Truth cannot still claim invincible ignorance.

A person who rejects this revealed Truth entirely, is not invincibly ignorant and therefore is outside of the Church and is not saved.

A person who rejects this Truth in part is not invincibly ignorant and it is unknown what will become of them.

Personally, I think it’s best to assume the glass half-empty for the sake of evangelization. If we assume the worst then we will be better prepared. We know that believing Catholics have the best chance at salvation. It’s not that others have a lesser chance, but the mere fact that we cannot say with certainty that they have a chance or not at all.

If we have the complete revealed Truth at our disposal, it is our duty out of love of our neighbor to give him the best chance possible at salvation by bringing that Truth to him. We cannot be complacent in others’ ignorance thinking invincible ignorance will save them. Just as we do not know if they are damned, the same goes that we do not know if someone is invincibly ignorant.

If remaining invincibly ignorant was safer than spreading the gospel fearing someone might reject it and go to hell, Jesus wouldn’t have ordered the Great Commission.

Spreading the Truth can only put people in a better position than what they were already in. The Word of God cannot make someone worse-off salvation-wise than they were before.

Invincible ignorance is not a catch-all and it is sinful to assume so.
 
Someone is damned if they talk to a Catholic and do not convert or they are not.

That is surely important…at least it should be in everyone’s book

If two Catholics cannot agree on what “no fault of their own” means, then what else is up for grabs?

Another thread is bearing this problem out as well.

But the lay Catholic cannot appeal to the Magisterium because it is not available to appeal to.

The Catholic cannot go to the priest, because he is not the Magisterium.

The same with the bishop…they are not the Magisterium either.

Can a lay Catholic convene a Council to settle a dispute over the Catechism?

But that is not available to Catholics now.

We have another devout Catholic on another thread insisting that the Catholic Church does not teach that a literal Adam and Eve are the parents of all humanity.

They say this because of their private interpretation of the Catechism.

I showed them the Catechism saying otherwise, and guess what…they said that paragraph was allegory and not literal.

Who else can be appealed to?

Where is the Magisterium to settle this?

Nowhere.

This is Sola Catechisma, IMV.

This is very common among the Catholics I meet. Very common.

Though a bit off topic, this strikes to the heart of what the OP is getting at.
Atemi. I fear that your persistent misrepresentations of Catholic teaching, along with your hostility will put you in danger of being banned from the forum. I am also curious why it is so important for you to obstantly continue denying the teachings. What needs do you have that are getting met by doing this? I do not get the sense that you are here to ask about anything, but rather, to grind an axe.
 
Someone is damned if they talk to a Catholic and do not convert or they are not.
This is an inflammatory statement, in addition to being erroneous.
That is surely important…at least it should be in everyone’s book
It seems to me, Atemi, that what is important to you is to somehow debunk the teaching of the church so that you can justify not being personally a part of it. I do not think this is a correct use of the forum.
If two Catholics cannot agree on what “no fault of their own” means, then what else is up for grabs?
This is another inflammatory statement. You have already been corrected about this several times, because you have been making unjust and outrageous accusations toward other posters and against Catholicism. Disagreement in interpretations in no way leaves Catholic teaching “up for grabs”.
Another thread is bearing this problem out as well.
If you are creating problems like this with your expressions in other threads as well, then your account might be at risk.
But the lay Catholic cannot appeal to the Magisterium because it is not available to appeal to.
Atemi, if you had read the links that have been provided to you, you would have seen that the teaching of the magesterium is available in many places, most of them available on the web. I wonder if you even used those links provided? It seemst that you, personally, do not want to put yourself in a position to be educated by the magesterium, because then you would not be able to continue to make the outrageous assertions that you have been making.
The Catholic cannot go to the priest, because he is not the Magisterium.
This is another erroneous and provoking statement. Catholics are encouraged to go to their priests. However, it is true that not all priests are well versed in these gnarly theological issues. They are primarily charged with pastoring the flock, and some of them have not even read all the documents that are published.
The same with the bishop…they are not the Magisterium either.
This is an erroneous and provoking comment, Atemi. Catholics are encouraged to go to their bishop, especially when their questions are not answered by the priest. It seems like you are trying to find fault where there is none, as well as resisting the authority that was appointed by God. If you don’t wish to submit to authority because your heart is in rebellion, at least try to avoid bringing condemnation upon yourself by purporting that this authority does not exist, or is not able to be accessed by the faithful.

(continued)
 
Can a lay Catholic convene a Council to settle a dispute over the Catechism?
Atemi, only a person such as yourself, who is indignant and refuses corrrection would even think of such a thing. It represents an arrogance that is not conducive to learning. No, a Catholic would faithfully seek other resources to educate themselves, including reading what the previous councils have already written, which clearly you have not done.
But that is not available to Catholics now.
This is another erroneous statement, Atemi. The writings of the councils are available for study. If you do not wish to avail yourself of them, at least don’t discourage others from doing so. This could be considered attempting to draw Catholics away from their faith, and may get you banned from the forum.
We have another devout Catholic on another thread insisting that the Catholic Church does not teach that a literal Adam and Eve are the parents of all humanity.

They say this because of their private interpretation of the Catechism.
Good! You have given an excellent example of why it is so important to listen to the magesterium! I see a glimmer of hope. 😃
Who else can be appealed to?
It depends upon what type of appeal you are making. If you wish to confess, I suggest the sacrament of reconciliation.
Where is the Magisterium to settle this?
You have been provided with links, Atemi. They are not going to come to your house and molly coddle you.
This is very common among the Catholics I meet. Very common.
One finds oneself wondering what sort of Catholics you meet, how you meet them, and what reasons you might have for doing so… :hmmm:
Though a bit off topic, this strikes to the heart of what the OP is getting at.
The OP was saying that, because he heard one comment over the radio that seemed “off the wall” he was ready to leave the church. I guess what you are saying is similar in the sense that you seem to be looking for reasons to disavow the truth of Catholic teaching, and will use anything you can find to try to show discrepancies.
 
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

We affirm that God can be known, to a degree, by reason alone. That reason must be enlightened by grace, however. No-one can be excused for rejecting God.

So can Hindus who do not repent be saved? Jesus says: I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. (Luke 13:5)

While one may be invincibly ignorant of the true faith, if a person dies in a state of rejection of God, he will definitely go to hell. What’s worse, a Hindu doesn’t know that they need to repent to be saved. A Hindu is therefore in a terrible situation and desperately needs to hear and accept the Gospel. I am not saying that they cannot be saved, but they have no idea of what’s necessary.
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Atemi:
God has commanded that ALL men everywhere repent. This does not exclude that Hindu.
Absolutely correct.

Acts 17:30
“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent”

Everyone, whatever faith they claim to profess must repent to be saved. Ignorance of the true faith does not excuse anyone from having to repent from what they know in their hearts they’ve done wrong.

We Catholics have to evangelise not because other religions are inferior means to salvation, but because they are false and impede the salvation of mankind. While some may be better than no religion, compared to Christianity, they impede the reception of the grace of repentance - indeed - people of those religions do not know that it is necessary for salvation, and such ignorance is not invincible, for God gives His grace to everyone. Whether we know it or not, we reject God by sinning, and we, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist must repent.

So let’s not be politically correct and give into the inclusivist temptation. While one can affirm and hope that God’s grace may move someone to a sufficient belief in God and to repentance and thus salvation, even if they have never heard the Gospel, it is our duty to spread the Gospel because other religions are gravely deficient and false, impeding the acceptance of that grace. They don’t know they need to repent to be saved.

Let’s not kid ourselves that if someone of another religion appears to be a “good person” that they do not merit damnation. You don’t need to be Christian to commit mortal sin. Many outwardly “good people” wilfully and obstinately break God’s commandments, and all have committed mortal sin and are culpable for rejecting God and in desperate need of forgiveness.

All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. (Eph 2:3)

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23.) Just because Protestants quote this a lot does not make it any less true.

All of us - you, me, Christians, Muslims, the evillest rapists and the holiest of Saints deserve damnation for causing infinite offence to God. Only repentance can save us, and only because of Jesus Christ alone.

The Catholic position is nothing new.

St. Justin said in the second century:
Christ is the Logos Divine Word of whom the whole race of men partake. Those who lived according to Logos are Christians, even if they were considered atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, and Heraclitus.

Needless to say, if those atheists did not repent, they are still damned, as will you and I be if we don’t.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)

…God our Saviour … wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3-4)

Let’s not disappoint Him. Let’s evangelise, shall we?
 
Rosalind Moss, like the rest of us, isn’t perfect. But her answer to the question is right.

Sending all non-Christians to hell is worse than double predestination.
 
Yeah, this is just another prize example of an anti-Catholic simply sitting there twisting the teachings of the Catholic Church while raising the bar to proclaim as if he has won the debate, “it is not enough!”

The fact is that the Word of God does not tell us that we will know the final eternal end of those who do not come into contact with the Gospel of Christ. Some n-Cs, like Atemi take their Bibles in hand and come away proclaiming that they know all the mind of God in all things. :dts:

Atemi’s assertions are just smokescreens to make him appear that he has found some vital fault in the Catholic faith.

His comments concerning magisterial authority are specious as all the faithful Catholics reading this thread are well aware. He attacks Catholics for something that n-Cs are far and away more guilty of than we will ever be since there is no authority even remotely comparable to what the Catholic Church has…no greater collection of sources than those that we refer to to gain insight into correct Christian teaching, and no greater scholarship to discover and assure that we are correctly informed than we share with the early church.

Just stop and think my friends. He alleges a problem that does not exist in Catholicism while remaining part of one of the thousands of doctrinally broken churches where it is the norm.

Consider the wide diversity of doctrinal error that prevails among so many n-C churches and the also consider the cockamamy beliefs that you have heard from the lips of individuals who consider themselves members in good standing. :eek:

We stand on the foundation of the ECF, the martyrs, the apostles, and the Word of God Himself. We have the benefit of a true teaching magisterium that has never and will never, teach error, proving true the very promise of Christ Himself that the gates of hell will never prevail against her.

While Atemi speaks from the foundation of the very rebellion that was surely part of one of the greatest assaults on Christianity and its truth that hell ever conceived. Just look at the results… (By their fruits you will know them. Matthew 7:20)

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
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