....That leaves us with nothing but visible churches, be it catholic or protestant, founded by mere man as opposed to Jesus Christ...

[Rightlydivide]

RD, you do believe that the church established by Jesus Christ, circa AD 33, in Jerusalem on Pentecost is still here - yes? Okay, if the CC was not established by God circa AD 33, in Jerusalem on Pentecost and none of the PC’s were established by God, then where in the world today can I find the church established by Jesus Christ, circa AD 33, in Jerusalem on Pentecost

Well your language is off again in my estimation. Early Christians, led by James and the Apostles specifically in Jerusalem, did worship with fellow Jews initially. The exact nature of when they began to worship apart from Jews and the Gentiles joined them specifically to form a church persay as opposed to continuing to worship in the synagogues and then meet afterwards to celebrate the Lord’s day is something that many historians and biblical scholars have written about. Christians remained in Jerusalem and groups like the Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and even the Assyrian Church of the East trace their apostolic lineage to that church. Of course, as I have stated repeatedly, apostolic lineages abound anymore. If you were to visit Jerusalem, which you may have, you could find any number of Christian groups still there.
It is not a big worry of mine. I am more concerned, obviously, in what Christ did for me and my life and how I can share the Gospel and more importantly live the Gospel.
Take care.
When we talk Joe, its a challenge because it seems like you are looking for something.
I hope you find it or your answer to these questions.

 

[Sufjon]

The first centuries of Christianity were an organic period of growth, based on the initial beliefs about the life and teachings of Jesus, rather than a structure which was, in every respect, set out in stone by Christ in an utterly obvious manner. The room for disagreement is vast.

Hi Noesis;7221237: What you are saying seems to be most correct. From what I am learning on this website, it seems to have developed in a number of different ways, and now there is a good deal of disagreement.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[joe370]

Well your language is off again in my estimation. Early Christians, led by James and the Apostles specifically in Jerusalem, did worship with fellow Jews initially. The exact nature of when they began to worship apart from Jews and the Gentiles joined them specifically to form a church persay as opposed to continuing to worship in the synagogues and then meet afterwards to celebrate the Lord’s day is something that many historians and biblical scholars have written about. Christians remained in Jerusalem and groups like the Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and even the Assyrian Church of the East trace their apostolic lineage to that church. Of course, as I have stated repeatedly, apostolic lineages abound anymore. If you were to visit Jerusalem, which you may have, you could find any number of Christian groups still there.

It is not a big worry of mine. I am more concerned, obviously, in what Christ did for me and my life and how I can share the Gospel and more importantly live the Gospel.
Take care.
When we talk Joe, its a challenge because it seems like you are looking for something.
I hope you find it or your answer to these questions.

Well. you really did not answer my question but that’s cool…

You take care too…

 

[fbl9]

The church- as a whole- is described as an olive tree in Romans 11.

The first generation of Jews who initially belonged to the Church in AD 33 are best associated with “the nourishing root.” Gentiles (initially from Antioch, Cyprus, Galatia, et al.) were the first generation of “wild olive shoots” that were grafted into the olive tree and shared in the “nourishing sap” from the root.

Subsequent generations of “the nourishing root” are said to have “failed” or “stumbled,” although it’s clear that this will not be their fate forever. While they’ve been doing that, though, many more “wild shoots” of the Gentiles continued to be grafted in. They have varying levels of awareness and/or appreciation for their own status relative to that of “the nourishing root.” Sadly, some are mistaken as to who that identity belongs to. In fact, some of the wild shoots seem to think they somehow qualify as “the nourishing root.”

That’s not you, is it?

An answer with a bit more brevity looks like this. Since 33 AD, God has ingrafted a huge number of Gentiles into His Body, the Church. You see them all over the place. I know it includes people like me, and I don’t know you so I can’t say for sure, but it might include some people like you- provided that He has actually ingrafted you.

That is what happened to the church founded by Jesus Christ, circa 33 AD, in Jerusalem.

What you wrote sounds good however the whole of the Jewish religion is what the root is. re-read Romans11;13-22 .

 

[joe370]

Yes, I answered as much in your thread where you asked who founded it if not Christ. It was Leo IX.

Pope Leo IX of Rome and Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius were both leaders of the one CC. Cerularius was not the founder of the EOC and Leo was not the founder of the CC. Jesus was the founder of the one CC that is now divided into the CC and EOC, respectively.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Founded by mere man? Let us assume that Jesus gave initial revelation via his insight and through his life, with regard to a set of doctrines which are ultimately true. Such doctrines were then taught to the world, from the mouths of those who knew Jesus. The world, in turn, taught generation after generation.

Of course, men argued over who had the most authority to teach in the name of Christ, and this in turn led to different sects arising. When the Roman Empire officially began replacing classical Roman polytheism with Christianity, councils were called to ‘settle’ such arguments. Submission to the will of councils, then, became a hallmark of the authority of the men teaching in the name of Christ. Such authority formed canon. When it was time to philosophize, the Neoplatonist positions were overhauled to suit Judaic theology, and thus in turn influenced the initial doctrines of Jesus, of Paul, and of the traditions of the Apostles.

I would have to say that this extremely simplistic (this is a forum, afterall) view of events, certainly leaves far more room for the founding of Churches by ‘mere men’ then it does for the founding of a Church by Christ. Indeed, there is nothing ‘known’ about Christ which men themselves did not preserve for other men. The first centuries of Christianity were an organic period of growth, based on the initial beliefs about the life and teachings of Jesus, rather than a structure which was, in every respect, set out in stone by Christ in an utterly obvious manner. The room for disagreement is vast.

Wow nice post. Nicely condensed.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

I am told by most, not all non-Catholics, that the visible Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome was not founded by Jesus Christ circa AD 33, in Jerusalem on Pentecost. They also admit that none of the visible Protestant Churches were founded by Jesus Christ circa AD 33, in Jerusalem on Pentecost. That leaves us with nothing but visible churches founded by mere man as opposed to Jesus Christ.

What happened to the church founded by Jesus Christ, circa AD 33, in Jerusalem on Pentecost?

The church founded by Jesus Christ circa AD 33 in Jerusalem on Pentecost is the Orthodox Church. The visible Roman Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome is a schismatic church broken from the One True Catholic Apostolic Church contained in the Orthodox Church.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

RD, you do believe that the church established by Jesus Christ, circa AD 33, in Jerusalem on Pentecost is still here - yes? Okay, if the CC was not established by God circa AD 33, in Jerusalem on Pentecost and none of the PC’s were established by God, then where in the world today can I find the church established by Jesus Christ, circa AD 33, in Jerusalem on Pentecost

Istanbul

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Pope Leo IX of Rome and Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius were both leaders of the one CC. Cerularius was not the founder of the EOC and Leo was not the founder of the CC. Jesus was the founder of the one CC that is now divided into the CC and EOC, respectively.

How can they both be leaders of the one CC? And if they are co-leaders what of the other 3 patriarchs? But then there was a divide between Leo IX and Michael. And now we have the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. But which one is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost in AD 33 in Jerusalem? You either have to say one or the other or neither after all Christ founded ONE church, not two, not three, not four, not five, just one. Since you have sided with the church in communion with Rome since that is the contention of your original post, then I chose the Orthodox.

 

[Nine_Two]

Pope Leo IX of Rome and Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius were both leaders of the one CC. Cerularius was not the founder of the EOC and Leo was not the founder of the CC. Jesus was the founder of the one CC that is now divided into the CC and EOC, respectively.

You’re partially correct, however it was under Leo IX’s reign that the attempt to force Papal Supremacy, using the Donation of Constantine, occured. Since this saw the Roman break with the Church, credit must be given to Leo for founding the new Church.

The idea that the Latin Church is one with the Orthodox Churches is similar to the Anglican insistance that they are part of the one Church. You can say it all you want, it doesn’t make it true.

 

[pablope]

The church founded by Jesus Christ circa AD 33 in Jerusalem on Pentecost is the Orthodox Church. The visible Roman Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome is a schismatic church broken from the One True Catholic Apostolic Church contained in the Orthodox Church.

Of course, the RCC will say the opposite…it was the Orthodox that are schismatic.

 

[joe370]

You’re partially correct, however it was under Leo IX’s reign that the attempt to force Papal Supremacy, using the Donation of Constantine, occured. Since this saw the Roman break with the Church, credit must be given to Leo for founding the new Church.

The idea that the Latin Church is one with the Orthodox Churches is similar to the Anglican insistance that they are part of the one Church. You can say it all you want, it doesn’t make it true.

You seem to want me to believe that I belong to a church founded by Pope Leo. That’s silly…By the way, as I am sure you know, In 1965, those mutual excommunications were rescinded by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras when they met in the Second Vatican Council. Let us both pray that the EOC and the CC reunite as one church again brother.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Pope Leo IX of Rome and Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius were both leaders of the one CC. Cerularius was not the founder of the EOC and Leo was not the founder of the CC. Jesus was the founder of the one CC that is now divided into the CC and EOC, respectively.

I know you also recognize the Assyrian Church of the East as a “sister” church. The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrians can share a Eucharist.

Also, distinct from the Eastern Orthodox, are the Oriental Orthodox. The Catholic Church also recognizes their apostolic origins and dialogue with them as well.
sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/rc.html

As most people know, the Oriental Orthodox/Catholic split occurs prior to the split of 1054 but back to 451 AD

 

[joe370]

To my knowledge, the Chaldean CC is an eastern particular church of the Roman Catholic Church, maintaining full communion with the Bishop of Rome.The Assyrian church, however, emerged as a distinct body following a schism in the Church of the East in 1552. It is an offshoot of the EOC just as the Lutheran church is an offshoot of the CC so the answer to your question is no. One must believe in the teachings of the CC and belong to the CC…just like any other church…

*Living by this faith and these sacraments, it follows as a consequence that the particular Catholic church and the particular Assyrian churches can recognize each other as sister Churches. To be full and entire, communion presupposes the unanimity concerning the content of the faith, the sacraments and the constitution of the Church. Since this unanimity for which we aim has not yet been attained, we cannot unfortunately celebrate together the Eucharist which is the sign of the ecclesial communion already fully restored."
*

I know you also recognize the Assyrian Church of the East as a “sister” church. The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrians can share a Eucharist.

Also, distinct from the Eastern Orthodox, are the Oriental Orthodox. The Catholic Church also recognizes their apostolic origins and dialogue with them as well.
sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/rc.html

As most people know, the Oriental Orthodox/Catholic split occurs prior to the split of 1054 but back to 451 AD

 

[Erobill1]

The Orthodox Church.

Lol…very funny! according to non- catholics The Orthodox church is founded by men because the date they use is in the era when we were truly One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Sorry but yea tha+ was funny.

 

[Rightlydivide]

=joe370;7226153]To my knowledge, the Chaldean CC is an eastern particular church of the Roman Catholic Church, maintaining full communion with the Bishop of Rome.The Assyrian church, however, emerged as a distinct body following a schism in the Church of the East in 1552. It is an offshoot of the EOC just as the Lutheran church is an offshoot of the CC so the answer to your question is no. One must believe in the teachings of the CC and belong to the CC…just like any other church…

It is not an offshot of the Eastern Orthodox at all. I am not sure where you received your information. You seem to be conflating groups etc etc

Between the 9th and 14th centuries it was the world’s largest Christian church in terms of geographical extent, with dioceses stretching from the Mediterranean to China and India. Following a schism in 1552 the Church of the East has been split into two principal communities: the independent Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church, an Eastern Catholic church in communion with the Holy See.

Your quote is from 1994.
The Eucharist between the two churches was restored under the guidelines 7 years later.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Of course, the RCC will say the opposite…it was the Orthodox that are schismatic.

Of course, but since Rome is schismatic, what they say is of no consequence.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

You seem to want me to believe that I belong to a church founded by Pope Leo. That’s silly…By the way, as I am sure you know, In 1965, those mutual excommunications were rescinded by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras when they met in the Second Vatican Council. Let us both pray that the EOC and the CC reunite as one church again brother.

It’s silly that that Nine_Two wants you to believe it, or you find the truth to be silly?

 

[Mikeoffaith]

You seem to want me to believe that I belong to a church founded by Pope Leo. That’s silly…By the way, as I am sure you know, In 1965, those mutual excommunications were rescinded by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras when they met in the Second Vatican Council. Let us both pray that the EOC and the CC reunite as one church again brother.

So Joe, since you keep asking maybe you should answer? Which church is the one true church that was founded by Christ on Pentecost 33 AD in Jerusalem?

 

[joe370]

So Joe, since you keep asking maybe you should answer? Which church is the one true church that was founded by Christ on Pentecost 33 AD in Jerusalem?

As a former non-Catholic, I have concluded that the historical church of Matthew 16, founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost, circa 33 AD in Jerusalem, is the Catholic Church.