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datritle
Guest
just join the Knights of Columbus, dude. **** the masons
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bitznbitez
Guest
A fascinating book published in 1885 under Imprimatur may be of interest. Got a whizbang spooky title, but is actually an interesting bit of history. It relates a lot material that directly addresses your question. It uses the word antichrist in the sense of all that opposes the Christ and his Church, not in the sense of a specific figure.
War of Antichrist with the Church and Christian Civilization: Lectures Delivered in Edinburg In October 1884. Its back in print and on amazon at the link.
Some may disagree with it, however it was presented by Monsignor George F. Dillion, published under imprimatur, and in this edition via Google Books includes a rather approving letter about the work by Pope Leo XIII.
War of Antichrist with the Church and Christian Civilization: Lectures Delivered in Edinburg In October 1884. Its back in print and on amazon at the link.
Some may disagree with it, however it was presented by Monsignor George F. Dillion, published under imprimatur, and in this edition via Google Books includes a rather approving letter about the work by Pope Leo XIII.
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AlanFromWichita
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FCEGM
Guest
First, he didn’t “threaten” you with excommunication for your Masonic membership since he has no authority to excommunicate you.
Second, telling you of the penalties for a Catholic who joins the Masons isn’t “threatening” you, but rightly warning you what you incur as a Catholic who has done so.
Third, it’s counterintuitive to think that one who is trying to alert you to the eternal consequence of your continuing as a Mason would act as the very troubled religious sister did; why would he want to hasten your death so you can arrive at the destination he wants you to avoid?
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ess1113a
Guest
What about us that are members of both already? That is a great idea !!
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thistle
Guest
If you are a Freemason then you are in a state of mortal sin.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I’m sorry. I just can’t buy, under any circumstances, that one sheep has privileged knowledge about the state of another’s soul.
If the Church teaches that we can infallibly determine the state of another brother’s soul by their external behavior, for me that goes very much against Jesus’s clear teachings that neither group membership nor external behavior is an accurate indicator of the state of the soul. And membership in a group – any group – IS external behavior.
Alan
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GEddie
Guest
The Church does not claim to read anybody’s soul.
It can, however, say that certain actions or behaviors are serious sins, and will lead one to Hell, if unrepented.
Unlike some sins, joining the Freemasons is not something one can just bumble into; it takes some doing. So one cannot claim a lack of full consent or free will. And once you know that the Church considers it grave matter, you have no excuse.
God Bless and ICXC NIKA
It can, however, say that certain actions or behaviors are serious sins, and will lead one to Hell, if unrepented.
Unlike some sins, joining the Freemasons is not something one can just bumble into; it takes some doing. So one cannot claim a lack of full consent or free will. And once you know that the Church considers it grave matter, you have no excuse.
God Bless and ICXC NIKA
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Mijoy2
Guest
This (bold) is most certainly true. However the church alsoo encourages us to ask questions as to why she teaches what/why she does. This is siimply what the original poster did; ask questions.
I read all the responses up to Thistles then ran out of time. Up to this post not one post directly answered the OPs direct question. There were a few of attempts, one or two being the allowance of the organization to believe in a creator but freedom as to who this creator may be (as I understand it). That, in itself, doesn’t sound too heretical. After all citizens of the United States of America all fall under this catagory.
When I get time later I’ll read the rest of the posts, perhaps by then someone will have answered a direct quesion with a direct answer. Other then the old standby “cuz the church says so”. Which is true but is not an answer. The question was why does the church say so.
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thistle
Guest
Nobody has said that you or I know the state of anyone’s soul. Where do you get that from?
The Church infallibly teaches (and I showed you the teaching in an earlier post) that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell.
The Church has also stated that any Catholic who is also a Freemason is in a state of mortal sin.
Therefore a Catholic who is a Freemason and dies without repenting the mortal sin of being a Freemason goes immediately to Hell.
What is difficult about that to understand? It is crystal clear.
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Mijoy2
Guest
Not going to Mass on Sunday is “mortal sin”
co-habitation is “mortal sin”
fornication is “mortal sin”
excess drunkeness is “mortal sin”
maturbatoin is “mortal sin”
many many more…
the percent of the population left is probably somewhere in the 0.001% range or so (guesstimate of course).
crystal clear? Hope not. Heaven is/will be a pretty empty place and hell darn near runneth over.
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thistle
Guest
The Church teaching is unambiguous. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell. What is not crystal clear about that? Are you saying you don’t agree with the Church teaching?
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Bl_Pope_Pius_IX
Guest
Can you show me where I “endorsed and supported” whaat that Sister did? I quoted the Popes, what is so provocative about that?
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bitznbitez
Guest
It never made sense to me either till I read the book, church approved and in some printings with a letter from Pope Leo XIII, I linked in comment #81. Its really beyond summarizing in a comment field, so I didn’t directly answer either, however if one really wants to know why the church teaches the way it does that book lays it out and will directly answer it.
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BluesPicker
Guest
Pope Leo XIII’s Encyclical* Humanum Genus* in English at the Vatican website portrays Freemasonry in a bad light. If you have joined or whatever it is initiated burn everything related to it you own and go to confession. You will be a lot happier and blessed if you do so.
BP
BP
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I get that from what you are telling me. You say the Church stated that mortal sin is implied by membership in Freemason. That means that the Church knows the state of his soul. That doesn’t even leave room for the usual full knowledge and consent disclaimers.
I can’t believe it’s impossible for a person to be a member of Freemasons and not be in the state of mortal sin, nor do I believe the Church can make that claim about anyone based on no other evidence.
If there is a way to explain this that is self-consistent, I haven’t heard it yet.
Alan
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ess1113a
Guest
Where would that knowledge have to come from?
A competent authority such as priest or deacon?
A random website ?
An open forum?
A rumor?
What about my cardinal that says that Freemasons can partake of the sacraments but not minister in the name of the Church?
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ess1113a
Guest
Great points. The issue is way to broad and subjective to be that cut and dried.
What is a man goes through all three degrees, becomes Catholic, but forgets to pay his dues and is no longer on the rolls of a lodge? Is he a Freemason?
What is the official procedure on unbecoming a Freemason? Is there a document I have to sign? What if I just stop going but I still wear a ring?
It gets more complicated than that actually. What if the only orthopedic medical assistance my daughter can receive is from a Scottish Rite or Shriners Hospital? Should I let her suffer before I advocate a Masonic organizations assistance?
What if I am desititute and the local Masonic lodge drops food off at my door? Should I just give it away or dump it rather than associate myself with a “sinful” organization?
My issue is similar to Alans point. I think life is far more complex than to say an organization is evil based upon speculation and rumors. Yes there is bad in almost any organization: sex abuse not withstanding, but is this organization merely a target of opportunity ?
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
One thing I like to see in general is that Catholics, even here in Wichita, seem to do a good job of teaming up with other Christians and even non-Christian religions to do corporal and spiritual works of mercy for the poor, the orphans, widows, sick, enslaved, etc. I think that Jesus made it clear that doing good works of mercy trump group identification.
One example is the Lord’s Diner here in Wichita, just opened its second location in another poor area of town. Free dinner no questions asked, just sign in and eat 365 hot meals/year. All denominations and even businesses and individuals volunteer and donate money and supplies. This is good to team up with others. They will see our works and by them know our faith.
Thank you for your comments. My point is a bit like that, but not quite. I think you’re addressing the fact that we don’t know enough about the other religion to make fair statements.
I’m viewing this from different levels of abstraction, so even if we have good information about the other group, I still have a problem with treating them as inferior on the sole basis of not teaching what we profess to be objectively true. Many of Jesus’s stories and parables turned around the roles so that the person who is in the “right” group presents unfavorably to someone in the “wrong” group. Sinners are regarded higher than the righteous. A Samaritan is justified over a priest. Tax collectors over Pharisees. Women of ill repute over the lack of hospitality from a “righteous” rich man who failed to wash his honored guest’s feet. First shall be last and last, first. The one who is least becomes greatest in heaven.
There are more examples where those came from.
Alan
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thistle
Guest
It is not complicated at all.
The Church states you cannot be Catholic and a Freemason. Your obedience is to the Church.
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