That Old Freemason Question...

[bobcrawford]

You are begging the question, bob.

That the Democratic party is a “threat” has not been established.

That’s YOUR opinion.

Not necessarily the Church’s.

Unlike our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I am unable to make the blind see.

 

[PRmerger]

Now you pushed one of my buttons.

Hah! Just saw this post, Alan.

What difference does it make what some document in a vault somewhere says, when the rank and file are being taught a bunch of trash?

Is there some secret document to which you are referring?

If you are saying that it’s impossible to know what the Church teaches, then I must assert that you are in great error here.

That there are those who preach from the pulpit and from the classrooms things that may not be consonant with Catholic teaching is a shame, but does not negate this fact: what the Church teaches, and has proclaimed for 2000 years is available to all, to any who care to investigate.

This is the quality control problem I am adamant about the Church needing to fix. Not the sheep, but the established “power structure” in the Church. If the Church does not take responsibility for properly teaching her children, then their blood is on her hands, is it not?

Certainly.

That’s like taking a driver’s ed class from Sears, and the teacher tells you it’s OK to use the exit ramp to get on the highway as long as there is nobody around. Then somebody gets a ticket or gets killed, and Sears gets sued. They use the defense, “we don’t control what is taught in our schools.” :knight1:

If the defense came from the Magisterium, “We can’t control what is taught in our schools” then I would agree with you.

But I’ve never heard that proclaimed from the Vatican. Have you?

Rather, it is the rank and file Catholics, like me, who state: if you were taught [A], and the Church actually teaches [not-A], then you were misinformed, and, sadly, that is the fault of the teacher. Not of the Church.

 

[PRmerger]

Unlike our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I am unable to make the blind see.

Just work on yourself, bob. What’s that saying about removing the splinter from the other person’s eye while you have a big old Redwood in yours?

 

[bobcrawford]

Just work on yourself, bob. What’s that saying about removing the splinter from the other person’s eye while you have a big old Redwood in yours?

I guess if some Catholics cannot see the threat to the Church by the Democratic Party and Obama…remember, the party that boo’d the change in adding God back into the platform, then I am having a difficult time finding a redwood, much less a splinter.

 

[PRmerger]

I guess if some Catholics cannot see the threat to the Church by the Democratic Party and Obama…remember, the party that boo’d the change in adding God back into the platform, then I am having a difficult time finding a redwood, much less a splinter.

I think we should listen to the leadership of our shepherds.

 

[bobcrawford]

I think we should listen to the leadership of our shepherds.

Many a shepherd has lead the sheep to slaughter.

I was also thinking about the comments of the Church “surviving” Nazis, Romans, etc.

The Church was severely diminished in England after Henry VIII. Europe has a whole has seen a decline after WWII and the Nazis. Even in Italy, the Church is seeing declines.

When Socialist and Fascist marginalize the Church, and the Church and it faithful do not stand against those governments, people feel abandoned by the Church leadership.

If a shepherd does not protect the sheep from the wolves, the sheep will scatter.

 

[PRmerger]

Many a shepherd has lead the sheep to slaughter.

Like who?

I was also thinking about the comments of the Church “surviving” Nazis, Romans, etc.

The Church was severely diminished in England after Henry VIII. Europe has a whole has seen a decline after WWII and the Nazis. Even in Italy, the Church is seeing declines.

When Socialist and Fascist marginalize the Church, and the Church and it faithful do not stand against those governments, people feel abandoned by the Church leadership.

If a shepherd does not protect the sheep from the wolves, the sheep will scatter.

Indeed.

 

[TEPO]

Many a shepherd has lead the sheep to slaughter.

I was also thinking about the comments of the Church “surviving” Nazis, Romans, etc.

The Church was severely diminished in England after Henry VIII. Europe has a whole has seen a decline after WWII and the Nazis. Even in Italy, the Church is seeing declines.

When Socialist and Fascist marginalize the Church, and the Church and it faithful do not stand against those governments, people feel abandoned by the Church leadership.

If a shepherd does not protect the sheep from the wolves, the sheep will scatter.

What party does your brother-in-law favor? Is it the more “tolerant” one? Just curious.

 

[bobcrawford]

Like who?

Seriously, it was not just a religious comment. I thought many here were students of history.

From a secular standpoint, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Napolean readily come to mind.

From a religious standpoint, Martin Luther, Pope John XII, Pope Urban VI, Pope Clement VII.

 

[bobcrawford]

What party does your brother-in-law favor? Is it the more “tolerant” one? Just curious.

The Democratic Party of course.

 

[TEPO]

The Democratic Party of course.

I KNEW IT…! (their tied together somehow…)

 

[bobcrawford]

i knew it…!

me too!

 

[PRmerger]

.From a religious standpoint, Martin Luther, Pope John XII, Pope Urban VI, Pope Clement VII.

Fair enough.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

If you are saying that it’s impossible to know what the Church teaches, then I must assert that you are in great error here.

I don’t know about that. Topic after topic, I see people bicker all the time about what the Church teaches and how it applies to any given situation. If you think it’s simple then I invite you to be an apologist on my forum for the Catholic teaching section … the last one had to quit several years ago.

That there are those who preach from the pulpit and from the classrooms things that may not be consonant with Catholic teaching is a shame, but does not negate this fact: what the Church teaches, and has proclaimed for 2000 years is available to all, to any who care to investigate.

It is now. Out of 2000 years, the last 20 or so now we can say the resources are there.

But still you shouldn’t just have to know to go look for them. They need to say this from the pulpit. How can you hold someone responsible for not knowing that in order to understand the Church teachings and the path to holiness, they have to get on the web and look up certain things? Why isn’t that taught from the pulpit? Why isn’t it printed in the bulletin, or on parish web sites? You are right; we have the technology; now let’s go tell the sheep the treasure is all there for the sharing. What better way then from the pulpit?

If the defense came from the Magisterium, “We can’t control what is taught in our schools” then I would agree with you.

But I’ve never heard that proclaimed from the Vatican. Have you?

No, just CAF posters have said that. They tell me the Pope has no control over what is done in the parishes, and I call shenanigans.

Rather, it is the rank and file Catholics, like me, who state: if you were taught [A], and the Church actually teaches [not-A], then you were misinformed, and, sadly, that is the fault of the teacher. Not of the Church.

AARRRGGGGHHHH!!! You’re killing me! When does the person paying the salary of the teacher, ever take responsibility for the performance of the teacher? This is worse than the public teacher unions. :whacky:

Alan

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know about that. Topic after topic, I see people bicker all the time about what the Church teaches and how it applies to any given situation.

Let’s take the example that was given regarding Limbo.

What does the Catholic Church teach regarding Limbo? If you do a search here you will find multiple threads with lots of discussion (you may call it bickering) on this.

However, discussion/bickering on Limbo does not mean: the Church is unclear regarding this theological speculation.

She is quite clear: it is not dogma. It is merely theological speculation.

The Church has stated that we don’t know what happens to the souls of the unbaptized. But we may hope in God’s mercy. And we can be assured that some of the unbaptized are indeed in heaven (the Holy Innocents).

It’s like a bunch of engineering students hanging around discussing Calculus. That there is room for you guys to bicker/discuss does not mean that the truths of Calculus cannot be discerned.

It is now. Out of 2000 years, the last 20 or so now we can say the resources are there.

Curiously, I believe that the Catholics of the previous decades/centuries were exceedingly better catechized than the average Joe Modern Day Catholic.

And yet, the resources to which you refer were largely unavailable.

Why is that, do you think?

I believe that the Church in the last few decades has done an abysmal job in providing nourishing catechesis to her flock. Mainly, I think, she has attempted to water down the truth to a more palatable, Kum-bah-yah theology that’s as nourishing as a Twizzler stick.

Thankfully, our youth today are wanting the Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, and are getting fed like this by the Catholic Church these days:

http://newmedian.thebeachfrontclub...._21e3d58419dd1049702bc2f2a89bbf33_600x400.JPG?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Curiously, I believe that the Catholics of the previous decades/centuries were exceedingly better catechized than the average Joe Modern Day Catholic.

And yet, the resources to which you refer were largely unavailable.

Why is that, do you think?

I believe that the Church in the last few decades has done an abysmal job in providing nourishing catechesis to her flock. Mainly, I think, she has attempted to water down the truth to a more palatable, Kum-bah-yah theology that’s as nourishing as a Twizzler stick.

Thankfully, our youth today are wanting the Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, and are getting fed like this by the Catholic Church these days:

NOW we’re talking. This is exactly what I was talking about. And I do agree that youth who are interested in Catholicism do want the full truth, and are more likely to seek it than those in my generation, for example, who were basically fed spiritual pablum with nobody telling us there was anything beyond that.

Alan

 

[PRmerger]

But still you shouldn’t just have to know to go look for them.

Well, yes and no, Alan. There is a point when an adult Catholic needs to take responsibility for his own catechesis.

Coming here and saying some ga-ga, la-la nonsense is Catholic teaching, and claiming that since he was an altar boy who was taught by Sr. Mary Holy Water that this gives him credibility won’t cut it here. :nope:

They need to say this from the pulpit.

Sure. Who here has proposed they shouldn’t?

How can you hold someone responsible for not knowing that in order to understand the Church teachings and the path to holiness, they have to get on the web and look up certain things?

If someone says he was taught to worship Mary when he was in 2nd grade, and he swears that he heard Fr. Whatawaste say that again in 6th grade, but now he’s being told, “Nope. This is not Catholic teaching”…well, it’s his responsibility to study and pursue the truth.

I mean, really, if his catechesis ended in 6th grade then his knowledge is pretty dismal, don’t you think?

Why isn’t that taught from the pulpit? Why isn’t it printed in the bulletin, or on parish web sites? You are right; we have the technology; now let’s go tell the sheep the treasure is all there for the sharing. What better way then from the pulpit?

I don’t know about where you live, but where I live there’s nourishing catechesis coming from all the places you cited, AND MORE.

Most folks, though, are zombie-like in their attitude about the faith.

Their fault. Not the Church’s.

AARRRGGGGHHHH!!! You’re killing me! When does the person paying the salary of the teacher, ever take responsibility for the performance of the teacher? This is worse than the public teacher unions. :whacky:

Alan

How do you know that the “person paying the salary of the teacher” knows what’s being said by this teacher?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

How do you know that the “person paying the salary of the teacher” knows what’s being said by this teacher?

It isn’t for me to explain how teachings supervisors work. I just know that it’s done, and teachers are held to standards in every venue except the Church. Wouldn’t you think the Church, whose teachings mean salvation v. hell, would want to be at least as careful as the state run schools?

LOL I really don’t care about this. I just find it interesting just when I think we agree, we apparently don’t.

Alan

 

[PRmerger]

It isn’t for me to explain how teachings supervisors work. I just know that it’s done, and teachers are held to standards in every venue except the Church. Wouldn’t you think the Church, whose teachings mean salvation v. hell, would want to be at least as careful as the state run schools?

Of course the Church should supervise her teachers and do all she can to ensure that “truth in advertising” occurs. That is, what is taught at a Catholic school ought to be, well, Catholic teaching.

What is it that you believe the Church should be doing that she isn’t doing to ensure this?

And that brings up an interesting segue: are you familiar with the document Ex Corde Ecclesiae?

This was the Church’s attempt to ensure “truth in advertising” among Catholic universities.

I’m just going out on a limb here, but I think that you would be opposed to this. (Forgive me if I have assumed too much). It mandates that theologians in Catholic universities who are teaching Catholic theology proclaim only that which is Catholic teaching.

You: good, or bad, this mandate?

 

[PRmerger]

LOL I really don’t care about this. I just find it interesting just when I think we agree, we apparently don’t.

Alan

Hah! I guess we can’t even agree on whether we are agreeing,

because I thought we had both given a to the notion that the Church must proclaim her teachings from the pulpit, with more vigor and fidelity to the Truth. Yes? We are agreed on this?