J
johnmann
Guest
I did not ask for sympathy nor do I consider off-temp singing a plight except maybe in a comical sense nor did I say you need a music lesson.
- Status
R
RocketRM
Guest
I agree with your statement but I think your concern comes across as overreacting to such a minor aspect of the overall mass environment.
It would be like me getting upset when I hear an “And also with you” slip out of pew-neighbour. Yes it’s not accurate but let’s be happy that we are all together celebrating God’s love as a community… no matter what our faults/defects.
Be happy that you have active singers in your parish… most of the parishes I’ve attended over the years would be grateful for any kind of parish singing (accurate or not)
Z
zab
Guest
…or maybe it is like the people getting upset because you are singing it correctly
A
aspirant
Guest
If it’s as pervasive as you say, and people really react this way to you, it sounds like you’re the one “off tempo” and making it impossible for people to sing together.
I mean this: It sounds like they have a tempo they’re familiar with and that they are singing together, regardless whether the tempo you see printed on the page. By following the page rather than the community, and doing so loudly, you’re probably the one throwing off the timing.
C
Cat
Guest
?
I play piano and organ, and I don’t see the problem.
Two quarter notes and a half note = 4 counts to a measure.
A dotted quarter note, an eighth note, and a half note = 4 counts to a measure.
It’s polyphony. What’s wrong with it? I’m guessing it sounds kind of cool.
The OP needs to keep in mind that there are different editions of the same hymn, and the edition that the OP believes is “correct” might be one edition, and the edition that the OP believes is “incorrect” might be another edition.
Someone pointed out the example of Holy God, We Praise Thy Name. Good example. I have quite a collection of church hymnals, and I have searched through ALL of them to find an edition that includes the grace notes on "in-fi-(hiccup grace note)-nite thy vast do-(hiccup grace note)-main, and I have yet to find this anywhere. I have asked my organ teacher, who has a Ph.D in music, and he has no clue about where those grace notes originated. I never heard them in the Protestant churches that I was part of for 47 years. And yet, in every Catholic parish that I have been part of, the grace notes (hiccups) are sung. I do not play them (because they’re not in the written music in my accompaniment or in the written music for the congregation), and yet they are sung anyway!!
So somewhere along the way, someone created an edition of Holy God We Praise Thy Name with grace notes. I suspect that this occurred after a church picnic in which the ale flowed a little too freely and the music teacher sung the hymn while slightly…shall I say, happy?!
But I could be wrong, and eventually I will probably discover the edition of Holy God, We Praise Thy Name with the grace notes. Until then, I will simply accept that other people know a different version of the hymn, and I’ll be glad that they are at least singing it instead of standing there wishing that the parish would do Gregorian chant instead of hymns.
E
Elizium23
Guest
The grace notes of which you speak are also prevalent in “Amazing Grace”. By contrast to the differing rhythms the OP speaks about, grace notes add a pleasant harmony to what is being sung and do not introduce conflict or dissonance.
(Note to aspirant and johnmann, rhythm is not tempo)
Incorrect rhythms can be learned easily and are hard to suppress. I often have to raise my hand in rehearsal to say “We got that rhythm wrong.” Even the director could be guilty of it. Right now our interim music director gets very annoyed with me if I point out a typo, mistake, or inconsistency, so I try to keep my mouth shut. Sometimes it is a curse to strive for perfection.
The worst hymn for me is “Be Not Afraid”. Somewhere between original publication and the appearance of “Spirit & Song” the rhythm got changed from being based on eighth notes and dotted quarter notes to being based on sixteenths and double-dotted quarters. I want to believe that this is an organic development that is representative of how it was actually sung in many places. However, now it sounds rushed and sloppy. Many people still know the original rhythm which existed since at least 1979, and now choirs are trying to cram in a new kind of rhythm that the publisher has imposed (guess which one!) If you don’t know music it can be confusing and frustrating. It’s not impossible to adapt to it, it just takes some unlearning. And it’s an unlearning I refuse to do because the new one sounds so sloppy and rushed.
(Note to aspirant and johnmann, rhythm is not tempo)
Incorrect rhythms can be learned easily and are hard to suppress. I often have to raise my hand in rehearsal to say “We got that rhythm wrong.” Even the director could be guilty of it. Right now our interim music director gets very annoyed with me if I point out a typo, mistake, or inconsistency, so I try to keep my mouth shut. Sometimes it is a curse to strive for perfection.
The worst hymn for me is “Be Not Afraid”. Somewhere between original publication and the appearance of “Spirit & Song” the rhythm got changed from being based on eighth notes and dotted quarter notes to being based on sixteenths and double-dotted quarters. I want to believe that this is an organic development that is representative of how it was actually sung in many places. However, now it sounds rushed and sloppy. Many people still know the original rhythm which existed since at least 1979, and now choirs are trying to cram in a new kind of rhythm that the publisher has imposed (guess which one!) If you don’t know music it can be confusing and frustrating. It’s not impossible to adapt to it, it just takes some unlearning. And it’s an unlearning I refuse to do because the new one sounds so sloppy and rushed.
A
aspirant
Guest
Z
zab
Guest
I appreciate it when those around me have the right melody so that I can sing the muscic properly. The intent of his singing loudly, as I understand it, was an attempt to get people to realize the correct way that the hymn should be sung, not to drown them out or throw them off tempo. Sometimes I have to listen to the way that the people around me are singing the responsorial response when we have no music until I can get it right.If it’s as pervasive as you say, and people really react this way to you, it sounds like you’re the one “off tempo” and making it impossible for people to sing together.
I mean this: It sounds like they have a tempo they’re familiar with and that they are singing together, regardless whether the tempo you see printed on the page. By following the page rather than the community, and doing so loudly, you’re probably the one throwing off the timing.
h
Ummm. I realize this is a bit off track. But my the version of Be Not Afraid from my 1977 Glory and Praise Volume 1 has sixteenth notes and double-dotted quarter notes.
D
drforjc
Guest
Thomas Day in Why Catholic’s Can’t Sing also notes the difficulty in the unusual rhythm for that song. His book was published in 1992, I think, but he didn’t give me the impression that it was a change from a simpler notation (I’d have to get the book out and reread that section). Do you suppose the odd rhythm was an attempt to replicate the breezy, folky rendition on the recorded version by the St. Louis Jesuits?
E
Elizium23
Guest
I am 100% sure that an alternate rhythm version exists. Listen to it here. Another rendition here. Contrast with “new” version here.
It came out when I was 7 years old and my parish sang it for years. My memory for rhythm is pretty good, and it was jarred mightily when I heard this “new” version.
Perhaps the “old” version that I remember was an ad-hoc adaptation to make it more “singable” for a congregation. A lot of people don’t grok sixteenths. It’s a wide chasm between eighths and sixteenths. Much easier to support eighths with instrumental accompaniment, and easier to sing them at standard tempos.
Actually the “new” version you include is what we used to sing in my parish back in 1980. That’s how I’ve always known it. I remember my choir director from back then spent hours beating those sixteenth notes into our brains. I think we were probably more accurate than Bob Dufford (or whoever is singing it on that recording)!!!
My Earthen Vessels CD shows the original 1975 North American Liturgy Publications copyright information so I’m pretty sure that is an OLD version rather than a new one.
E
Elizium23
Guest
It’s peculiar. Both of my OCP hymnals, Choral Praise (c) 2004 and Spirit & Song (c) 1999 show the sixteenth-notes versions. So the one I remember may be “new” but it does not seem to have survived well. I wonder what publication used the eighth notes and whether it is still in printing. Not OCP. It is interesting that the two versions I am looking at have slightly different settings. In Spirit & Song, some notes are divided and tied in order to match the chord accompaniment. And of course, S&S dispenses with all forms of harmony and descant. 
Sometimes I want to burn these things, but they’re still in active use in my parish…
Sometimes I want to burn these things, but they’re still in active use in my parish…The “Odd” rhythm is the original rhythm.
Z
zab
Guest
Well, I suppose the effect would be as he assumes it to be if people moved from parish to parish spreading the incorrect way of singing . But I have a little good news for him- it is not sung that way in every parish. Our parish sings the Sabat Mater the same way he doesI understood his intent. I’m talking about the effect.
a
If there are any versions that use other rhythms they probably ad-hoc or limited permission. I know that my current choir director has an arrangement of Be Not Afraid he composed in the early 1980s which he has permission to use for his choirs. (And he definitely has sixteen notes.)
The 1994 Breaking Bread that I dug out of my closet has the sixteenth notes. I’ve only ever seen NALR/New Dawn/OCP versions.It’s peculiar. Both of my OCP hymnals, Choral Praise (c) 2004 and Spirit & Song (c) 1999 show the sixteenth-notes versions. So the one I remember may be “new” but it does not seem to have survived well. I wonder what publication used the eighth notes and whether it is still in printing. Not OCP. It is interesting that the two versions I am looking at have slightly different settings. In Spirit & Song, some notes are divided and tied in order to match the chord accompaniment. And of course, S&S dispenses with all forms of harmony and descant.
If there are any versions that use other rhythms they probably ad-hoc or limited permission. I know that my current choir director has an arrangement of Be Not Afraid he composed in the early 1980s which he has permission to use for his choirs. (And he definitely has sixteen notes.)
P
Phemie
Guest
It’s probably because they can’t read music.
I’ve been in a situation where the choir director asked me whether they should sing a particular hymn as written or as people have been singing it. Why she asked me, I have no idea since I’m not even part of the choir and I’m not involved with the music, but maybe it was because I happened to be there in the church doing something when she was practicing with the organist.
I replied that I would sing it as written (I didn’t add “because you really annoy me when you don’t sing what I’m expecting you to sing based on the notes in front of me”) so then she says, “Oh, I guess we’ll stick to the way it’s been done before.” Ok, so why did you bother asking me what you should do?
- Status