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Snugglebugmom
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Ouch… excellent point! I should be a little more careful with how I phrase things as well.
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mkingdomlvr
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I went to school in the days before there was such a thing as concerns about bullying or name calling. We were supposed to just deal with it ourselves. I can’t even include the names I was called in this post because they won’t get past the filter. I never announced my sexuality to anyone, but I didn’t have to my classmates were happy to identify me as a lesbian-and I wish that was the word they used. Before I was even old enough to make a decision about engaging in homosexual acts, I was already labeled and treated as if I killed kittens and puppies in my free time. High school was a special kind of Hell that I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. It’s where I learned that for many people, even those that consider themselves good Christians-hating the sin and hating the sinner are NOT two separate things. The homosexual is evil and deserving of bullying simply because they exist.
Christians make a lot of noise about how the last acceptable prejudice is against them. Well, maybe if they spoke out about prejudice and cruelty against other groups, there would be someone ready to speak for them when they are the victims.
Christians make a lot of noise about how the last acceptable prejudice is against them. Well, maybe if they spoke out about prejudice and cruelty against other groups, there would be someone ready to speak for them when they are the victims.
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Sarabande
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I agree with this. When I was growing up (80s/90s), when someone used the term “That’s so gay!” or “You’re so gay”, depending on the situation, it either meant that “you” or “it” was so stupid OR they were trying to make a boy feel horrible and demean him by calling him a homosexual. I’ve actually never heard or experienced the latter definition towards girls when I was a kid. It was always towards the boys and many times, I remember that the things these boys were doing and being called “gay” were not even “effeminate” at all. It was just a way to be mean towards them and make them feel like they were less than a male.
Either definition, it’s still derogatory and mean. My mother would go ballistic if we ever used “stupid” or “dumb” towards each other or even towards things. Those words were right up there with all the bad 4-letter words we also were not supposed to say - and in some regards considered even worse in her mind because they were demeaning another. This was because she believed that using words like “stupid” and “dumb” (I’m sure “gay” as well if we ever used that term) towards people - especially towards other children - would have a negative impact on them.
Basically, I have never heard “That’s so gay” or “You’re so gay” as something innocent and nice. It’s meant to make someone feel stupid or gay when they aren’t even either one of those things.
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Sarabande
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I remember reading somewhere that the term was appropriate by gays as well, but I can’t remember for sure.
Having lived in a very “gay” area of the city (in both the old-fashioned definition and the current one - it was one of the safer areas to live and as a young woman living alone in the city, the gay men were actually very protective of the women there, so you actually had a lot of straight, single young females living in the area mainly because of the safety) for a while and also working in the arts, I know and have worked with a number of homosexuals. The homosexuals I know call themselves “gay”, so it isn’t considered derogatory for them if it is used in a non-derogatory way. Although, I have also heard them use the word “fag” or “fagot” in order to be derogatory towards other gay men, for instance.
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Sarabande
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I don’t really hear “That’s so retarded” or “Retard”, etc. that much anymore either. I can say that I’m part of the earlier generations at Catholic school who was taught not to use that word in a derogatory way, because I remember the IHM sisters coming into the classroom and explaining to us why it is mean to call another person a “retard”, especially when they weren’t mentally challenged. Also because it became a derogatory term we shouldn’t use it towards mentally challenged people anymore either.Here’s a question. Does anyone hear the phrase “That’s so retarded” used anymore? It seems like that was popular years ago. So popular that there was a move away from using the term “retarded” in favor of terms like “mentally disabled” or “mentally challenged.”
It occurs to me, though, that I haven’t heard that phrase used as much recently. Maybe it’s because I hang out with a more reputable crowd of people () or maybe they were successful in their campaign to make that phrase taboo. I suppose the anti-“That’s so gay” crowd can take a page from their playbook.
What I find interesting, though, is that as a musician you see “ritard”, “ritardando”, etc. which means to slow down, so it is sometimes used in terms of music. But since everyone within the music group knows what we mean or what the composer means when they see “ritard”, it’s not considered derogatory.
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mkingdomlvr
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When those of us in the community use the word “gay” we’re not using it as a euphemism for “stupid” and that’s really the difference. We’re using it as a term which defines our orientation.
I’ve heard a similar argument about the “n” word in the black community. That black people use the “n” word to destroy the negative connotation that was put on it by racists. I can’t imagine a good use for the “n” word, but then I’m not black.
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Joe_5859
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This thread has brought up some interesting things to think about (for me anyway ). It seems that, fallen humans that we are, we feel the need to create derogatory words, or to create derogatory connotations to words that previously meant something else.
I’ll just put this out there, too, but I know I’ve heard the phrase “that’s so gay” used in ways where the intent was not to be derogatory towards any particular person. In those cases, it was used to say that this or that situation is not desireable. Regardless of how it’s used, I suppose that doesn’t make a difference to those who identify themselves as “gay” as to how it makes them feel. Their hurt feelings stem from the fact that the term is being used to mean “not desireable”. In that sense, it doesn’t matter who or what the comment is directed towards.
). It seems that, fallen humans that we are, we feel the need to create derogatory words, or to create derogatory connotations to words that previously meant something else.- Dumb - originally a person who lacked the ability to speak
- Lame - originally a person with loss of mobility in one or more limbs
- Retarded - originally a person with an IQ less than 70 (well, before that, it simply meant something that slowed or impeded)
- Gay - originally happy
)), but then eventually a person with same sex attraction
I’ll just put this out there, too, but I know I’ve heard the phrase “that’s so gay” used in ways where the intent was not to be derogatory towards any particular person. In those cases, it was used to say that this or that situation is not desireable. Regardless of how it’s used, I suppose that doesn’t make a difference to those who identify themselves as “gay” as to how it makes them feel. Their hurt feelings stem from the fact that the term is being used to mean “not desireable”. In that sense, it doesn’t matter who or what the comment is directed towards.
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mkingdomlvr
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and that’s exactly the point. It’s hard enough being gay in this society, especially within the Christian community, having people consistently reinforce the idea that you’re “not desirable” is just icing on the cake.This thread has brought up some interesting things to think about (for me anyway
Now, in the case of the first three, the original meaning has been largely abandoned, and the more familiar definition of “stupid” is the first thing people ordinarily think of when they see those words by themselves. I suppose that some want to save the word “gay” from a similar fate.
- Dumb - originally a person who lacked the ability to speak
- Lame - originally a person with loss of mobility in one or more limbs
- Retarded - originally a person with an IQ less than 70 (well, before that, it simply meant something that slowed or impeded)
- Gay - originally happy
I’ll just put this out there, too, but I know I’ve heard the phrase “that’s so gay” used in ways where the intent was not to be derogatory towards any particular person. In those cases, it was used to say that this or that situation is not desireable. Regardless of how it’s used, I suppose that doesn’t make a difference to those who identify themselves as “gay” as to how it makes them feel. Their hurt feelings stem from the fact that the term is being used to mean “not desireable”. In that sense, it doesn’t matter who or what the comment is directed towards.
It seems that we never run out of ways to make each other feel bad.
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Sarabande
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Oh, yes, I realize that. I have about 3 family members and a couple close friends who are gay, as well as just working with many homosexuals in the music and arts community, so I do understand the difference of how the term is used. In what you are describing and how those I know use the term, it isn’t derogatory for them in that regard. Just the simple word of “gay” is and can be used to describe a person’s orientation with no derogatory intentions at all. “My two cousins are gay,” for instance. It is used to describe what orientation my cousins are with no usage of trying to be cruel and mean towards them.
I personally have never heard someone used “You’re so gay” towards an actual gay person. It was always directed towards a straight person in order to be derogatory and cruel towards them.
Yes, I agree with you. I attended university in the city on a campus surrounded by a very dangerous and deadly part of the city. (It wasn’t unusual to hear gun shots almost every night around campus and I’ve literally had a gang run in front of me while walking back to my dorm from class. They were chasing another man with objects in their hands intent to hurt or kill him. He ran into our dorm for protection. Once he did that, they turned around and went back off campus and the policeman who was in our dorm handled the situation.) Anyway, I always heard the people in the community as well as African-American students use the “n” word towards each other and was disturbed by it. I remember a white friend of our black friend used it, thinking it was okay for him since they were friends. Well, although our black friend didn’t go off on him, she did explain that he, as a white man, should never use the “n” word even if other black people could.
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Joe_5859
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Indeed.
The same thing happened to my cousin. When she was in college, her circle of friends included a large African-American contingent who would use the “n” word all the time with each other. Since they were all good friends, one day she playfully used the word and the room went uncomfortably silent. They weren’t mad at her, and they understood she meant nothing bad by it, but they let her know that it was not okay for her to say that!
It is odd that the same word used in the same playful way can mean something so different simply because of the color of skin of the person saying it. But it definitely does.
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jmcrae
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I was walking behind a couple of 8 year old boys on the way home one day - one was white and one was black. The black kid said something that came out wrong, and sounded kind of dumb, so the white kid said to him, “You h … !!” (derogatory term for white people) The black kid paused for a beat and then said, “What you problem, N …?!!”
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Lethe
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I do think the point is that a word’s uses are a lot more important when it has connections to people. I dont think people care too much if an adjective changes meaning ; it doesnt directly affect anyone. But if you’re black or jewish or catholic or gay… then also using the word to mean bad or stupid is going to be offensive.
But eh well, if you think its all fine and dandy, you can Jew off and get the Black out of here
Note: I do not support racism or anti-semitism.
But eh well, if you think its all fine and dandy, you can Jew off and get the Black out of here
Note: I do not support racism or anti-semitism.
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Sarabande
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In all honesty, the only times I hear adults use the phrase, “That’s so gay,” or “You’re so gay,” are from adults who aren’t that mature and needs to say things like that to feel better about themselves. My husband says that he has had a couple of co-workers (men) who use those terms once in a while - always in a negative connotation towards another man who is usually straight. I knew them as we worked in the same place. They were still stuck in high school mode mentality even though these men were in their 20s and 30s.
Personally, if a grown man or woman has to use those phrases along with any other kind of negative phrase, then perhaps that person needs to mature a little more, especially in regards to being kinder to his/her fellow brother or sister and also maybe to grow a little love and respect for him/herself. A person who has a real love and respect for himself will also have real love for others and not want to intentionally belittle or hurt another in any way.
Personally, if a grown man or woman has to use those phrases along with any other kind of negative phrase, then perhaps that person needs to mature a little more, especially in regards to being kinder to his/her fellow brother or sister and also maybe to grow a little love and respect for him/herself. A person who has a real love and respect for himself will also have real love for others and not want to intentionally belittle or hurt another in any way.
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Joe_5859
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Again, I find it interesting that the comparison is always made to ethnicity or religion (not that I disagree with your general point). And of course you pick those (Black and Jewish) with a history of being persecuted.I do think the point is that a word’s uses are a lot more important when it has connections to people. I dont think people care too much if an adjective changes meaning ; it doesnt directly affect anyone. But if you’re black or jewish or catholic or gay… then also using the word to mean bad or stupid is going to be offensive.
But eh well, if you think its all fine and dandy, you can Jew off and get the Black out of here
Note: I do not support racism or anti-semitism.
If someone said “That’s so Polish,” I don’t think it would be as offensive to most people as “That’s so Black” or “That’s so Jewish.” Perhaps the previous history of a certain group being marginalized is what heightens sensitivities to such things. 
Of course, the Polish people have been the victims of certain regimes. :ehh: And perhaps I would be more offended at a mean-spirited “That’s so Polish” than the typical Polish joke. 
Nevermind me, I’m just talking in circles here.
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Annn
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My experience is very different from yours. I am a high school teachers and I hear “You’re gay” and “F*****” a thousand times a day. And it is when students are trying to call each other stupid or incompetent. It’s the most commonly used insult I hear.
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Sarabande
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Oh, yeah. I know kids use it very often. I discussed in my previous post how it was used when I was growing up. It either meant stupid as what you describe above or literally trying to belittle another male boy by calling him ‘gay’.
In the post you referred to, I was speaking of adults - grown men and women who should know better. Not children or teens.
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Deo_Volente
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Grace & Peace!
The meaning of the word “gay” was not appropriated by homosexuals in order to associate themselves with something joyous or happy. I believe it was in the 18th to 19th centuries that “gay” took on the meaning of extravagance, later coming to mean a loose woman. Later on, because a proud dog with it’s tail in the air was called “a gay dog,” extravagant young men and dandies proudly sporting the latest fashions were referred to similarly.
Gay therefore assumed a pejorative social meaning combining looseness and extravagance long before the gay community “appropriated” it. Rehabilitate is perhaps a better term. This notion that homosexuals spoiled a good and pleasant word is the refuge of people who cling to a largely fictional and idealized past. Ah, the good old days, when words were pleasant and meant pleasant things, or at least meant what I want them to mean!
It seems that what has survived in the term’s use is its pejorative aura–it has therefore attracted other pejorative meanings, such as stupid. That’s language for you!
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
I don’t know if anyone else has addressed this, but I figured I would just in case.
The meaning of the word “gay” was not appropriated by homosexuals in order to associate themselves with something joyous or happy. I believe it was in the 18th to 19th centuries that “gay” took on the meaning of extravagance, later coming to mean a loose woman. Later on, because a proud dog with it’s tail in the air was called “a gay dog,” extravagant young men and dandies proudly sporting the latest fashions were referred to similarly.
Gay therefore assumed a pejorative social meaning combining looseness and extravagance long before the gay community “appropriated” it. Rehabilitate is perhaps a better term. This notion that homosexuals spoiled a good and pleasant word is the refuge of people who cling to a largely fictional and idealized past. Ah, the good old days, when words were pleasant and meant pleasant things, or at least meant what I want them to mean!
It seems that what has survived in the term’s use is its pejorative aura–it has therefore attracted other pejorative meanings, such as stupid. That’s language for you!
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
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Joe_5859
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Thank you, Mr. Oxford English Dictionary.
Seriously, though, that’s some interesting background info. Being that gay has been synonomous with homosexual for my whole life, the only thing I have to go from for the previous meaning is the Flintstones theme song.
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LittleBits
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As a gay Catholic, I find it VERY offensive. Why not just say, “that’s so dumb”, or whatever? The whole world would be in an outrage if the commercial said “that’s so black”, so why not give the same consideration to how gay people may feel about the “saying”???
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ipwnuathalo
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So, have you ever said “that’s crazy” to something you took exception to? I’m sure there are some mentally ill people who would take offense to it, but seriously, who cares? Not me. It’s part of the language.
As to “gay”, that cannot be helped. Most heterosexual men do not want to be accused of being homosexual. No amount of lobbying and politicking and complaining by homosexuals is going to change that for most men. Being called homosexual is always going to be a pejorative in straight society. There are lots of us who are a OK with that.
So, in that spirit, this thread is gay.
As to “gay”, that cannot be helped. Most heterosexual men do not want to be accused of being homosexual. No amount of lobbying and politicking and complaining by homosexuals is going to change that for most men. Being called homosexual is always going to be a pejorative in straight society. There are lots of us who are a OK with that.
So, in that spirit, this thread is gay.
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