The ‘silencing of Christians’ in the public sector

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Christianity is being subtly “silenced” within the public sector in the UK because of a civil service culture which treats speaking about faith as “not the done thing”, according to a former top Whitehall mandarin appointed as Church of England’s most senior lay official.
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William Nye said a “secularising spirit” now permeates the machinery of government, leading to an unspoken “squeezing out of Christianity” from national life, despite public expressions of support from David Cameron and other ministers.
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He said ministers or the general public would be surprised to realise the full extent to which faith is now seen as “odd and unusual” within the public sector in Britain.
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telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12079366/The-silencing-of-Christians-in-the-public-sector.html
 
I’m not sure I’m following what the implications are in this story. Bringing up religion in general conversation isn’t part of the UK culture - it wasn’t when I was young and isn’t now and I’m not aware that people who do so are seen as any more culturally odd than they were thirty years ago.

I wonder what it is he wants - visit the Inland Revenue and be asked whether you’ve had an encounter with Jesus?
 
1 John 5:19
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 20And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.…
 
Kaninchen said:
I’m not sure I’m following what the implications are in this story. Bringing up religion in general conversation isn’t part of the UK culture - it wasn’t when I was young and isn’t now and I’m not aware that people who do so are seen as any more culturally odd than they were thirty years ago.

I wonder what it is he wants - visit the Inland Revenue and be asked whether you’ve had an encounter with Jesus?
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Very odd interview. Perhaps it’s just that Telegraph readers like to be told the country is going to the dogs.
 
808Catholic said:
But not for Muslims in the UK or Europe…🤷
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So, tell us about your experiences of British/European Muslims who bring up religion in general conversation.

I’ve known a few Muslims and I can honestly say that none of them have done so.
 
Kaninchen said:
So, tell us about your experiences of British/European Muslims who bring up religion in general conversation.

I’ve known a few Muslims and I can honestly say that none of them have done so.
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I would suggest you research ex-Muslims who speak of the Islamic strategy to infiltrate quietly until host country legislation protects them and their religion; then they slowly change the host country laws until it favors Islam and Sharia; then, when a clear majority is obtained, they force Sharia upon the rest of the nation. At first, the Muslim immigrants appear “peaceful” and “downtrodden” but, given time and a weak host government, they will assert Sharia (as per the Koran.) Ask yourself why other Muslim countries do not step up and take them in especially their neighbors.
 
808Catholic said:
I would suggest you research ex-Muslims who speak of the Islamic strategy to infiltrate quietly until host country legislation protects them and their religion; then they slowly change the host country laws until it favors Islam and Sharia; then, when a clear majority is obtained, they force Sharia upon the rest of the nation. At first, the Muslim immigrants appear “peaceful” and “downtrodden” but, given time and a weak host government, they will assert Sharia (as per the Koran.) Ask yourself why other Muslim countries do not step up and take them in especially their neighbors.
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No, I suggest that you research the subject of this thread and the question you were asked.
 
Murmurs said:
Nail…forehead…BAM!
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I’m not familiar with this idiom, so I fear I can’t tell whether you agree with me or not!

My point was simply that we tend to buy the newspapers that reinforce our prejudices, or, to put it another way, a newspaper will give prominence to news that will be of particular interest to its core readership. Thus, on the Left, the Guardian and the Independent keep their audiences informed on racism in high places, police corruption, and the Plight of the Poor, while, on the Right, the Mail likes to stress the number of immigrants arriving or due to arrive (not only from the Muslim Levant but also from Christian east Europe) and the Telegraph appeals particularly to those exercised by the Decline of England – people who think everything was much better when television was black and white, currency was pounds shillings and pence, and the roads were full on a Sunday of elderly ladies cycling to Evensong.

Mr Nye is an intelligent and experienced man who will be as aware as the rest of us that it is not normal in England to introduce religion into everyday conversation – indeed that in some circumstances that would be a breach of good manners. Therefore, although I do not doubt that he said what he is quoted as saying (the Telegraph does have some degree of respectability), it is unlikely that he will have presented his opinions in quite the way the Telegraph does, that is to say in a manner calculated to give the appropriate frisson to those concerned that, even in the hallowed corridors of Whitehall, Christianity is becoming the faith that dare not speak its name. Because, put like that, it’s poppycock.
 
Picky_Picky said:
I’m not familiar with this idiom, so I fear I can’t tell whether you agree with me or not!

My point was simply that we tend to buy the newspapers that reinforce our prejudices, or, to put it another way, a newspaper will give prominence to news that will be of particular interest to its core readership. Thus, on the Left, the Guardian and the Independent keep their audiences informed on racism in high places, police corruption, and the Plight of the Poor, while, on the Right, the Mail likes to stress the number of immigrants arriving or due to arrive (not only from the Muslim Levant but also from Christian east Europe) and the Telegraph appeals particularly to those exercised by the Decline of England – people who think everything was much better when television was black and white, currency was pounds shillings and pence, and the roads were full on a Sunday of elderly ladies cycling to Evensong.
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Lol when you “hit the nail on the head”, you’ve hit it square on (ie, perfectly). So I do agree with you! (About at least some Telegraph readers…although I always look up the ‘Matt’ cartoon in it so I don’t know what it says about me!).

I think what you say about newspapers is even more the case online…everyone not unnaturally likes to seek out comfort in people who express the same thoughts that they do. (That might unfortunately explain Donald Trump’s bemusing popularity!). Newspapers and particularly websites that deal with news or opinion - even this one sometimes - have ever more degenerated into haranguing matches of one side, convinced it is utterly right, pitting itself against another side, equally convinced. The lack of civil discourse means compromise is seen as an inherently weak thing, and so avoided. While it is a process that started before the internet was so widely available and used, I think it has very much exacerbated the problem. Not to sound pessimistic (I am very much one with a positive outlook generally), but if Western civilisation does crumble away it will not be because radical Islamists have triumphed or gay marriage has led to an unsustainable low birthrate or we’ve sunk into an economic morass or even that we’ve been annihilated in a nuclear war: it will be because we are no longer capable of taking as societies rational decisions based on broad compromise, because anything other than an absolutist solution is seen as anathema.

But I digress…
Mr Nye is an intelligent and experienced man who will be as aware as the rest of us that it is not normal in England to introduce religion into everyday conversation – indeed that in some circumstances that would be a breach of good manners. Therefore, although I do not doubt that he said what he is quoted as saying (the Telegraph does have some degree of respectability), it is unlikely that he will have presented his opinions in quite the way the Telegraph does, that is to say in a manner calculated to give the appropriate frisson to those concerned that, even in the hallowed corridors of Whitehall, Christianity is becoming the faith that dare not speak its name. Because, put like that, it’s poppycock.
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While I agree with you, I do think also that any Christianity that is not a broad, liberal-ish Anglicanism of (as you said in jest) choral evensong, Nine Lessons & Carols on Christmas Eve and warmhearted exhortive sermons on Sundays followed by tea and/or a pleasant pub lunch, is seen as a little disconcerting in England (and the “friendly equivilents” in other denominations, of course). To be too “stridently” Christian, of any denomination, just isn’t on. I think it is not that Christianity is frowned upon at all, but to show you take it so seriously that it’s the only thing in your life (even as a clergyman), is regarded as a little bit weird. If for instance my spiritual director and I only talked about Our Lady and not the latest England test match scores, I would start to be a little alarmed…

Christians aren’t silenced in Britain, but to be too enthusiastic about it is frowned upon as breaking very long-held social conventions!
 
Murmurs said:
Lol when you “hit the nail on the head”, you’ve hit it square on (ie, perfectly). So I do agree with you! (About at least some Telegraph readers…although I always look up the ‘Matt’ cartoon in it so I don’t know what it says about me!).

I think what you say about newspapers is even more the case online…everyone not unnaturally likes to seek out comfort in people who express the same thoughts that they do. (That might unfortunately explain Donald Trump’s bemusing popularity!). Newspapers and particularly websites that deal with news or opinion - even this one sometimes - have ever more degenerated into haranguing matches of one side, convinced it is utterly right, pitting itself against another side, equally convinced. The lack of civil discourse means compromise is seen as an inherently weak thing, and so avoided. While it is a process that started before the internet was so widely available and used, I think it has very much exacerbated the problem. Not to sound pessimistic (I am very much one with a positive outlook generally), but if Western civilisation does crumble away it will not be because radical Islamists have triumphed or gay marriage has led to an unsustainable low birthrate or we’ve sunk into an economic morass or even that we’ve been annihilated in a nuclear war: it will be because we are no longer capable of taking as societies rational decisions based on broad compromise, because anything other than an absolutist solution is seen as anathema.

But I digress…

While I agree with you, I do think also that any Christianity that is not a broad, liberal-ish Anglicanism of (as you said in jest) choral evensong, Nine Lessons & Carols on Christmas Eve and warmhearted exhortive sermons on Sundays followed by tea and/or a pleasant pub lunch, is seen as a little disconcerting in England (and the “friendly equivilents” in other denominations, of course). To be too “stridently” Christian, of any denomination, just isn’t on. I think it is not that Christianity is frowned upon at all, but to show you take it so seriously that it’s the only thing in your life (even as a clergyman), is regarded as a little bit weird. If for instance my spiritual director and I only talked about Our Lady and not the latest England test match scores, I would start to be a little alarmed…

Christians aren’t silenced in Britain, but to be too enthusiastic about it is frowned upon as breaking very long-held social conventions!
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1 I think that’s fair comment.

2 I like Matt, too, but then he’s out of place – an escapee from the Indy.

3 And if you don’t mind my saying so stridently, the current test match score is more than a little alarming.
 
Kanichen,

I thought you lived in Italy. How long now in UK? How much more do you know and in what way? we read all the time about the extremists there and the freedom they have, and now read a student of Choudry (spelling) is leading an ISIS faction.
 
KathleenGee said:
Kanichen,

I thought you lived in Italy. How long now in UK? How much more do you know and in what way? we read all the time about the extremists there and the freedom they have, and now read a student of Choudry (spelling) is leading an ISIS faction.
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No, I was born in Italy and we spend several weeks there every year but I grew up in the UK.

The thing is that this thread isn’t really about Muslims, inherently (the OP) it is about British attitudes to religion and I’ve been making the point that not talking about religion - outside what might be described as ‘a religious context’ - is a cultural norm and has been for a very long time.

Meanwhile, the UK struggles with the same issues over things like freedom of speech v’s security as everybody else - we don’t have armed terrorists occupying part of one of our National Parks though. 😉
 
Kaninchen said:
No, I was born in Italy and we spend several weeks there every year but I grew up in the UK.

The thing is that this thread isn’t really about Muslims, inherently (the OP) it is about British attitudes to religion and I’ve been making the point that not talking about religion - outside what might be described as ‘a religious context’ - is a cultural norm and has been for a very long time.

Meanwhile, the UK struggles with the same issues over things like freedom of speech v’s security as everybody else - we don’t have armed terrorists occupying part of one of our National Parks though. 😉
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Malheur, though, does seem to be a bit like those mythical parts of London where police fear to go.
 
Picky_Picky said:
My point was simply that we tend to buy the newspapers that reinforce our prejudices, or, to put it another way, a newspaper will give prominence to news that will be of particular interest to its core readership. Thus, on the Left, the Guardian and the Independent keep their audiences informed on racism in high places, police corruption, and the Plight of the Poor, while, on the Right, the Mail likes to stress the number of immigrants arriving or due to arrive (not only from the Muslim Levant but also from Christian east Europe) and the Telegraph appeals particularly to those exercised by the Decline of England – people who think everything was much better when television was black and white, currency was pounds shillings and pence, and the roads were full on a Sunday of elderly ladies cycling to Evensong.
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Just out of curiosity, how would you describe Guardian readers, Picky?
 
tomarin said:
Just out of curiosity, how would you describe Guardian readers, Picky?
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As soon as this pub closes the revolution starts.

And teachers.

The two not being mutually exclusive.

Prosecco socialists (to be a champagne socialist you’d have to be a Guardian writer.)

And teachers.
 
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