The ‘Us and Them’ Religion

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I prefer to just be grateful some good Catholics managed to reach me and to hope that I can be a good Catholic influence to others. In this secular society I appreciate any support in my faith whomever it comes from.
 
I think tolerance and fellowship with all peoples is good thing for all.
 
We are all created by the same God; and the same God hears all our prayers despite all our differences. We have a duty to care for all of God’s creation, and that has to mean caring for all people despite our differences.

Truth is far more powerful; when we use it to change ourselves. When we use our truth to try and change other people, the chances are that we become hypocrites.
 
worldcitizen said:
I think tolerance and fellowship with all peoples is good thing for all.
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Nobody I know disagrees with this. However,
  1. tolerance and fellowship does not always mean you agree with the other person 100 percent on everything;
  2. tolerance and fellowship does not mean that the other person always gets their way on every issue;
  3. tolerance and fellowship does not mean that it’s automatically appropriate to just let them do whatever they want in all cases;
  4. we expect them to have tolerance and fellowship for us too, and that doesn’t always happen;
  5. tolerance and fellowship should not be used as political footballs whereby if someone has a good basis for disagreeing with some position, they’re automatically “intolerant”.
As for “praying in each other’s churches”, if a person who is non-Catholic wants to come into a Catholic church and say a prayer in the normal manner (in other words, remain in the pew or designated prayer space, not assume any disrespectful physical positions, not make noise etc) then that’s fine, nobody is stopping them, they can do it any time the Church is open, they can even go to our Mass.

if they want to do a prayer ritual according to their own faith, that’s not what a Catholic church, which is set up and paid for specifically for Catholics to worship in it, is for. If they’re looking for a general purpose non-denomination prayer room, there are plenty of those around also without them appropriating the church of another faith.
 
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You are creating a good case here against Jesus’ command to love thy neighbor and even thine enemy. All of these men–be they Pope or Saint–are apparently fallible when compared to the explicit teaching of G-d.
 
Yes I think this is at the heart of all true religious inspiration.
However in a fallen world there must be borders for the sake of self preservation and effective action. The purpose of such “Christian” borders though should be to channel and focus for the purpose of flowing outwards effectively to others rather than to preserve, stagnate and hoard.

And borders must constantly move outwards to include others and differences as we mature in our spirituality.

I think the Catholic attitude to private property well summarises this contradiction. The Church teaches the earth’s resources in the beginning belonged to all. But with the fall this harmonious sharing was no longer possible due to ignorance and weakness even amongst the well intentioned. So private property is an imperfect remedy in the face of this reality of an imperfect world, it brings out the best possible in an imperfect situation. Even then, in crisis situations the justness of private property has its limits and may be abrogated back to the original order. Food must be shared, even against the owners will, in times of grave need. The earth still belongs for the good of all.

People of great stature and spirituality appear to live with the least psychological borders as you say. Not all of us here can yet do that, though we are all called to walk that path.

Was it Ghandi who said, after being thrown out of a white Catholic Church as a young unknown Indian in his own country, “There is just enough religion in the world for men to hate each other but not quite enough for them to love each other.”

Words not only for young ChunkMonk but all of us methinks.
 
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Jesus Himself said the exact same thing.
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”
“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

God loves everyone, but He’s laid down terms for everyone to be saved.
 
Seeing the Church as irrelevant to one’s life and divine aspirations is not the same as not believing I suggest.
It appears more akin to not yet having heard the real Gospel. That may well be the fault of believers not the “infidels”.
 
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If these utterances by Jesus are to be taken literally with regard to salvation in the afterlife, then He surely contradicts the teachings of the Law and the rest of the Hebrew Bible, which present a G-d of infinite mercy as well as justice, a G-d Who would not condemn a non-believer, and especially one who believes in the Father but not the Son. Contrary to popular belief then, the G-d presented in the Gospels appears to be a sterner G-d than that of the Prophets rather than a more merciful and forgiving one. (I realize that both of our faiths believe G-d’s nature does not change.)
 
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But what separates them? Their actions.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
 
My understanding is it’s fine for us to have different beliefs but not that we allow those beliefs to become a source of prejudice, discrimination, hate and bigotry towards others who have different beliefs.

So although we may prefer others to believe what we do, not to mistreat them because of it but instead have a healthy respect for all people as equal human beings.
 
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If we are to love all people, would we not, then, want them to know Christ, in the fullness of the Truth?
meltzerboy2 said:
If these utterances by Jesus are to be taken literally
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Ay, but what do they mean literally? What does it mean to accept Christ, who we regard as the Word? To believe and follow the Word? Certainly it was implied that prior to the coming of Christ, someone such as Plato would have been saved, for he took up a right reason, perhaps wisdom.

I do not claim to know the answers to all. Certainly, it is preferable for all men to accept the Christ. In ways clear, He has made us seek a higher morality than we may desire, saying that lust is adultery, for instance. Yet, He brings Jew and gentile together for a higher law, a new law, which is written on our hearts. The one who clearly sees through in right reason, does this one take up of Christ?

I cannot say for sure that I understand all things or that I am correct in my ponderings.
 
Some religions are, simply, not very accurate IMO in describing the nature and will of God, if they even acknowledge Him at all to begin with. IOW, there are significant differences. But for our part as individuals, we must simply live the best we can according to what we believe to be the right path, and for myself Catholicism teaches that path better than anywhere else. I don’t need to look right or left and compare and criticize, but if the differences reveal themselves in some way to be harmful, I may be compelled to address them in love, to the best of my ability.
 
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ChunkMonk said:
Saints Peter and Paul, in their Epistles, have loathed heretics, and warned us to avoid them.
-St. Cyprian

St. Paul commands that a heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate. And this is what St. Jerome writes, adding that other sinners are excluded from the Church by excommunication, whereas heretics exile themselves on their own from the Body of Christ.
-St. Robert Bellarmine

I have always regarded the Church’s enemies as my own.
-St. Jerome

When our friends fall into very great wickedness, and become incurable, we ought no longer to show them friendliness. It is for this reason that both divine and human laws command such sinners to be put to death, because there is a greater likelihood of their harming others than of their mending their ways.
-St. Thomas Aquinas

If any man shall be friendly to those with whom the Roman Pontiff is not in communion, he is in complicity with those who want to destroy the Church of God; and, although he may seem to be with us in body, he is against us in mind and spirit, and is a much more dangerous enemy than those who are outside and are our avowed foes.
-Pope St. Clement I

I pray God that some of us, as high as we seem to sit treading heretics under our feet like ants, that we live not to see the day we would gladly wish to be at league and composed with them, to let them have their churches quietly to themselves so that they would be content to let us have our quietly to ourselves. […] Upon conditions that all heresies were suppressed, I would wish that all my books were burned up and all my labour utterly lost.
-St. Thomas More
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Is this your view of all Non-Catholics?
 
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meltzerboy2 said:
If these utterances by Jesus are to be taken literally with regard to salvation in the afterlife, then He surely contradicts the teachings of the Law and the rest of the Hebrew Bible, which present a G-d of infinite mercy as well as justice, a G-d Who would not condemn a non-believer, and especially one who believes in the Father but not the Son.
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He doesn’t. The same fate awaited those who didn’t keep the Law before He became incarnate. “Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
 
If you go into the matter you will discover the “hearing” must be a human hearing not a somewhat mechanical hearing. That is, it must be an internalised hearing. I have had calculus taught me but I wasn’t really there. Has it ever been internalised, no. Therefore it is not possible for me to have made a decision for or against the truth of calculus really because I haven’t internalised the principles to make such a decision.

I regret being too preoccupied with sport and leaving school for a trade not a University science career I suppose.
 
worldcitizen said:
I wish to speak about this ‘us and them’ mentality, attitude or what has developed into an almost religion over the centuries as I believe it’s man made and is a major obstacle to peace.
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worldcitizen said:
Apart from politics there is really no valid reason we as religious people cannot all come together. Politics encourages division and and estrangement but God is Universal.
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I don’t want to dismiss religion as an obstacle to peace, but by far the major reason is geo/politics. So even if religious people come together, geo/politics will get in the way.

My amateurish study of history makes me realise that most conflicts arise from geopolitics rather than religion. Even during the Crusades some crusaders were siding with the Muslims against other Christians.

My view is that politics/geopolitics trumps everything else. [but again i emphasise, religion still contributes but pales into comparison]
 
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