The 11th Commandment invading the Church?

  • Thread starter Thread starter weddy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
W

weddy

Guest
As a former Baptist, I have 1 really big pet-peave, that is what I call the 11th Commandment.

I am talking about Malachi 3:10 “Bring ye the whole tithe unto the house of God” , as it is now being recited in the Catholic Church, just like the protetants.

without ever referencing Malachi 1:1 “Write this book to the house of Isreal”, or the Catechism which says - to each as he is able - (paraphrased).

I have always held that this is a bad mis-representation of Scripture, in order to pull $$$ out of people-- VERY BAD

having heard a TOP name Apologist recite Mal 3:10, just after stating that, as Catholics we are not under the Law of Moses or the Prophets(aside from the 10 Commandments), I now have no respect for him.

I really just need to vent, but if others could sound off on this subject I wouldn’t feel so alone.

Thanx, weddy
 
Maybe it was merely a suggestion? I have read threads where it is repeatedly stated Time, talent or money. Or something like that. IOW, I think if you are finacially unable you can volunteer your talent or time to something.
Hope you get an answer. That is interesting to me, because it would be a very hard thing for me to ever believe that 10 percent of your income (before or after taxes?) no matter what your income is is going to be enforceable on a passage like that. Did Paul mention anything on this? I would ask for multiple NT references before getting upset and also demand to see where it is in the catechism it must be that way if I were you. I have seen protestant sites where some mention they HAVE to do this. I would not get too upset yet, because I bet there is no tradition or early fathers that tell people they have to do this. I think it is just horrible to make people feel they are bound to do something based on pure speculation of one single verse in the bible. But, note I am agnostic so take my opinion for what that is worth on this. If all churches were actually getting 10 percent of the gross on each member of job age they sure would have a ton of money! I see bulletins with the contribution totals on them and no way could it add up to that based on their stated membership.
 
I hear you! Yes, this seems to be a new phenomenon, borrowed from Protestants. I’ve never seen the “hard sell” in a Catholic church like I have lately. Of course, our bishops have been derelict in their duty so the dioceses’ resources have been depleted, and as usual, its the poor who suffer because of it. And so we all do need to do more, but I’ve never seen them break out Malachi before! The 10% tithe is not Catholic teaching, and every priest and apologist should know that. The Church calls on us to do what we can for those in need, just like our Lord did, and so that is what we should do. And one last thing, at least the Protestants promise a 100 fold return! 😛
 
There is a church that my parents “somewhat” attend. They have not become members of the church because in order to be a member you have to give 10% of your income to the church. My parents are of the belief (and I agree) that membership should be free and any money they give to the church should be at their discretion. This church has things ie vespers, stations,etc that my mom would like to participate in, however, every time she has called they tell her that these events are for members only. My parents have no desire to join, simply because the church seems more focused on money than souls.
 
The reason Malachi isn’t supposed to apply to Christians is because of the woman in the Temple with the two copper coins. Jesus pointed her out as having given more than the many men who gave great amounts of money. Why would he do that? It isn’t simply a matter of her being poor.

I heard my pastor say that he would never tell us how much to give, only that what we give should be a sacrifice. If 2% is a sacrifice, then God will love you. If you are wealthy, and for whatever reason, 10% doesn’t even make you blink, then exactly what have you offered to God? Tithes are not taxes. There is no set amount that automatically gets you in good standing.

I don’t tithe, but I don’t remember the last time I went to a restaurant either. :rolleyes:
 
I can honestly say that I have never heard a “hard sell” at our parish. Praise God we have a prayerful, well run and generous parish.

I do understand your complaint though. It just seems bad, and it is sad that some parts of the Church seem to go begging.

Of course there are also different ways to give, and much depends on the state of ones soul. By that I mean where lies their treasure?
For instance, when the Church is constantly trying to balance teh books and the parishoners are driving new cars and planning out of town vacations, or buying the latest umteen inch big screen TV, one must ask - where lies their treasure?

I know that years ago, parishoners would give not only of money but of time. Mothers werved as playground guards. Dad’s painted and repaired things, cut grass etc.
Kid’s were sent to Catholic School even if it meant sacrifice - hamburgers instead of steaks and a day at the local lake instead of a week at the beach.

Of course back then we also had Sisters who taught us for next to nothing in actual pay, but then they also lived together in the convent.

I guess I’m rambling a bit - oh well.

Peace
James
 
Luke65 said:
The 10% tithe is not Catholic teaching, and every priest and apologist should know that. The Church calls on us to do what we can for those in need, just like our Lord did, and so that is what we should do.
Click to expand...
I think the key here is “just like our Lord did”. In other words, most of us in America ought to be giving far more than 10%. Not all of it has to go to the Church, but we need to take the duties of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and visiting those in prison seriously. Money is just one way to do these things, but it is an important way.

Quite frankly, I’m suspicious of idea that we can afford *not *to tithe 10%. Do you have a car in your driveway? Do you have air conditioning? Do you have a job?

If you answered yes to those three questions, you are rich beyond belief, according to the standards of history! GIVE IT AWAY. Not all of it, but enough of it so that you live a humbler life – just like Jesus did.

Consider the number of priests we need in this country. Do you really think that the number of vocations wouldn’t double if we had two or three times as much money going into the collection basket? Living well below our means is a blessing, and tithing can help acquaint us with that blessing.
 
.

this is really interesting, I am not complaining about giving, just the "hard sell
" & the mis-use of scripture.

personally, allow me to answer these 3 questions & then some.
car? – no, I have to borrow one.
air conditioning? – no & I live in a “desert-mesa” , todays temp @ 100 F

here is a few more, I am a full time Usher at my Mass time & a lector-on-call & I give what I can.
I don’t buy new clothes, don’t have a bed & I work like a slave in the HOT sun for a below average pay $9.00/hr, plus I pay child support & take care of my landlady as best I can on my wage.

I could in no way consider my self “spoiled” or “comfortable”.

thanks to all who have sounded off so far, it is interesting to know what other people see & hear in other parts of the country/ world.👍
 
I think we are under certain aspects of what was discussed in the OT, like care for the poor. The tithe, in my book, is partly about the poor. In the third year it was given to the poor. So the concept behind doing that still holds. Other types of giving to the poor were required, in addition to this tithe, like leaving stuff in the field for poor people to glean (pick up after the reapers had gone by). I don’t think we have to leave stuff as it falls in the field as a rule, but we do have to have concern with the poor, like maybe give food to a pantry for them or however each person expresses the concern.

As Malachi discusses, it is not right to offer to God the sick, blind, or dead animals. He knew they had lots of lovely animals. Instead we ought to give him the best. So, in our love of the Lord, we ought to do our best for him, whatever that best may be. Do not worry if other people look at you and scoff at your best. God knows it is your best. 🙂

Maybe they just figure people want guidance, and “a tenth” is provided as a suggestion so that people don’t feel so in the dark. Some people feel a bit lost without little guides like that. Anyway, there are some two cents worth of thoughts for you.
 
weddy said:
.

this is really interesting, I am not complaining about giving, just the "hard sell
" & the mis-use of scripture.

personally, allow me to answer these 3 questions & then some.
car? – no, I have to borrow one.
air conditioning? – no & I live in a “desert-mesa” , todays temp @ 100 F

here is a few more, I am a full time Usher at my Mass time & a lector-on-call & I give what I can.
I don’t buy new clothes, don’t have a bed & I work like a slave in the HOT sun for a below average pay $9.00/hr, plus I pay child support & take care of my landlady as best I can on my wage.

I could in no way consider my self “spoiled” or “comfortable”.

thanks to all who have sounded off so far, it is interesting to know what other people see & hear in other parts of the country/ world.👍
Click to expand...
You seem to be doing quite a bit already and I can understand why it bothers you to listen to a “hard sell” from the pulpit. I too am quite limited in what I can do financially for my parish do to my wife’s illness. It’s even worse for me as I can’t even volunteer as you have, and I feel guilty sometimes.
All we can do as devout and caring catholics is to keep doing everything we CAN do and pray that others, who are maybe not so devout, will catch the “fever” as it were and step up more fully.
We cannot know each person’s heart or personal finance so we can’t go to individuals and say “you’re not doing your share”, only God can do that in their hearts.
I do think though that the “Hard sell” of some pastors more often than not will have a negative effect. It’s all right once in a while during some or other emergency but not as a regular diet. Better to place the needs before the Lord and ask Him for the solution.

Peace
James
 
As far as the creature comforts of home vs. giving to the poor, I think it’s only fair to recognize what society and civil law have dictated.

Families with children cannot donate to the poor at the expense of their children. Unfortunately, in this country today, perception is reality, and you as a parent can lose custody of your children if someone else thinks you aren’t providing properly for them. Not just adequately, but properly.

If the healthiest food your children eat is at school, you can lose custody. If their clothes are not keeping up with their growth, or if all their clothes are too big because your “trying to save”, you can lose custody. If your children never go to the doctor, and you have no transportation because you don’t own a vehicle, you can lose custody. And the more children you have, the harder it is to maintain. If someone thinks you have too many, Social Services will start asking questions.

If your home is not maintained to county or city or state standards, you can lose your home. If you don’t pay your bills, and your utilities get shut off, you can lose your home. Homes can be declared uninhabitable by whoever you pay your property tax to, even if you yourself are willing to live with a problem while it is fixed.

Earlier I said I didn’t tithe. That’s my paycheck I was talking about. I am active in my parish, as is my wife, but I don’t like to brag. Part of that was a feeling after I bought the house that I needed to be doing something more than prayer. We also run a daycare out of our home with rates far below the market average with great flexibility. Rates are so low that parents don’t even need vouchers to afford us. And yes, we do report it to the IRS. For whatever reason, our home has become a haven for the neighborhood kids, who seem to eat dinner with us more and more, much to my dismay as I stand back and watch my peace and quiet disappear. 🤷

As for those new clothes my kids have, they get donated when they don’t fit anymore, and they’re good enough for someone else. Likewise, people pass clothes to my kids as well. My one break from traditional families is the TV. I don’t see value in a house without a TV. I have met families who have tried it, and to me, they come across as not having a clue about the world around them. If their okay with that, alright, but count me out. As long as it’s used for information and only occasional entertainment, it’s not a vice, or a waste.

Just think back only 40 years ago. Poverty was never used as an excuse to break up a family. What is mandatory now was optional in the past. Now, it’s seen as doing right by children. Is that really true? As appealing the idea is of living more like Jesus, you risk losing your family in today’s world if you’re not careful. You can spend a lifetime trying to balance the two and still never figure it out. :eek:

That is until the kids are grown… 😃
 
ahollars,

I’m curious where you live, because – although I know the state can be rather invasive – I don’t have the sense, from where I sit, that my children are going to be taken from me for wearing hand-me-downs. If such a thing were to happen, I would consider it the duty of the parent to tell the church, and the duty of the church to raise hell and highwater. May God’s judgment fall on those who seek to separate parent and child in the name of justice!
 
Prodigal_Son said:
ahollars,

I’m curious where you live, because – although I know the state can be rather invasive – I don’t have the sense, from where I sit, that my children are going to be taken from me for wearing hand-me-downs. If such a thing were to happen, I would consider it the duty of the parent to tell the church, and the duty of the church to raise hell and highwater. May God’s judgment fall on those who seek to separate parent and child in the name of justice!
Click to expand...
I too am curious about ahollar’s post.
It appears he lives in Virginia and perhaps they have a more invasive social services there than in other parts of the country.
In any event, I suspect that most of the things mentioned would require that someone lodge a complaint before an investigation ensued. If the family is friendly and loving and a good neighbor, the children polite and “of good character” it is unlikely that such a complaint would be lodged.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
I too am curious about ahollar’s post.
It appears he lives in Virginia and perhaps they have a more invasive social services there than in other parts of the country.
In any event, I suspect that most of the things mentioned would require that someone lodge a complaint before an investigation ensued. If the family is friendly and loving and a good neighbor, the children polite and “of good character” it is unlikely that such a complaint would be lodged.

Peace
James
Click to expand...
Not from wearing hand-me-downs, but schools take notice when a child wears the same clothes frequently.

And yeah, Virginia is picky, since in the last couple of years there have been cases of the state not stepping in and children are found dead later. The nanny state doesn’t know where to draw their line apparently. Even then, I used to live in Maryland, and it’s even worse up there.

I decided to solve half my problems and home-school. Kids love it, I love it, wife loves it, and now the in-laws love it (that didn’t take long).

I would like to believe that as a homeowner I can give more to the church, since I don’t have rent that will go up every year anymore. Also, I bought a foreclosure, so my previous rent was more than what I currently pay for mortgage, tax, and insurance. It’s only been one year, so time will tell.

As for the kids:

12 :curtsey:, 6 :yyeess:, 5 :curtsey:, 2 :curtsey:, and one coming in October :yyeess:

I’m only 30, so what do I know? 😊
 
ahollars said:
Not from wearing hand-me-downs, but schools take notice when a child wears the same clothes frequently.

And yeah, Virginia is picky, since in the last couple of years there have been cases of the state not stepping in and children are found dead later. The nanny state doesn’t know where to draw their line apparently. Even then, I used to live in Maryland, and it’s even worse up there.

I decided to solve half my problems and home-school. Kids love it, I love it, wife loves it, and now the in-laws love it (that didn’t take long).

I would like to believe that as a homeowner I can give more to the church, since I don’t have rent that will go up every year anymore. Also, I bought a foreclosure, so my previous rent was more than what I currently pay for mortgage, tax, and insurance. It’s only been one year, so time will tell.

As for the kids:

12 :curtsey:, 6 :yyeess:, 5 :curtsey:, 2 :curtsey:, and one coming in October :yyeess:

I’m only 30, so what do I know? 😊
Click to expand...
Thanks for the additional info.
All I can say is - keep up the good work.
Hope all goes well with the new arrival. 👍

Peace
James
 
Saskatoon,

You are not suppose to have to pay to be a member of your parish and if they say you do , Go to the bishop , Being a member in your church doesn’t mean you have to pay so much in tithes , it simply means your a member there. Which is good cause if you need a priest , the priest from that parish would be the one who you call, other wise they could send you any priest. Tell your parents they still can engage in the activities that go on in the church, whether they are members or not. Please encourage them to do so, they can’t stop you or them from doing what ever they/you want to.

Hope this helps Halos

Give what you can leave the rest up to Christ AMEN
 
Hi everyone…

Just last week a friend of mine was asking us our opinions on tithing,Malachi 3 :rolleyes:

I believe that GOD looks at the heart not as per what other people might think.If I give my time ,talent etc with all my heart I feel that is worth more than the 10% of my income.

I believe the Holy Spirit guides us all.You need to feel satisfaction within you ,that what you have given is your all.

Have a blessed day.
 
Majobe said:
Hi everyone…

Just last week a friend of mine was asking us our opinions on tithing,Malachi 3 :rolleyes:

I believe that GOD looks at the heart not as per what other people might think.If I give my time ,talent etc with all my heart I feel that is worth more than the 10% of my income.

I believe the Holy Spirit guides us all.You need to feel satisfaction within you ,that what you have given is your all.

Have a blessed day.
Click to expand...
thanks Majobe, I’m glad to see that lots of us hold the same views.👍

I’m just tired of hearing Scripture taken out of context:shrug:
 
ahollars said:
The reason Malachi isn’t supposed to apply to Christians is because of the woman in the Temple with the two copper coins. Jesus pointed her out as having given more than the many men who gave great amounts of money. Why would he do that? It isn’t simply a matter of her being poor.

I heard my pastor say that he would never tell us how much to give, only that what we give should be a sacrifice. If 2% is a sacrifice, then God will love you. If you are wealthy, and for whatever reason, 10% doesn’t even make you blink, then exactly what have you offered to God? Tithes are not taxes. There is no set amount that automatically gets you in good standing.

I don’t tithe, but I don’t remember the last time I went to a restaurant either. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Right. There’s a big difference between a rich man giving 10% and a poor widow giving two coins.

Bill Gates: 2007 net worth: 56 million, Income: 1 million. 10% of his income: $100,000/yr (gets to keep his 56 mil and $900,000/ per yr

Widow: Net worth: -$50,000 … Income: $1100/mo… (rent alone $1000) can this woman give $110 per month???
 
graceandglory said:
Right. There’s a big difference between a rich man giving 10% and a poor widow giving two coins.

Bill Gates: 2007 net worth: 56 million, Income: 1 million. 10% of his income: $100,000/yr (gets to keep his 56 mil and $900,000/ per yr

Widow: Net worth: -$50,000 … Income: $1100/mo… (rent alone $1000) can this woman give $110 per month???
Click to expand...
Do you mean “billion” for Bill Gates? Or did he get fired from his old gig?😛
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top