The 144,000 anointed ones

[yessisan]

I keep on wondering about the way the JWs decide on who is a member of the anointed class.

My DH told me that these people just know the are of the anointed class. So if I wanted, I guess I could say I’m one of the anointed ones and they’d believe me, that is, if I were a JW?

So, how can the JWs take the Bible so “literally” in some ways, and not in others? The Bible does say there are 144,000 who are virgin males… but yet, they JWs don’t seem to care about the virgin male part of the verse.

 

[dawgfan]

I keep on wondering about the way the JWs decide on who is a member of the anointed class.

My DH told me that these people just know the are of the anointed class. So if I wanted, I guess I could say I’m one of the anointed ones and they’d believe me, that is, if I were a JW?

So, how can the JWs take the Bible so “literally” in some ways, and not in others? The Bible does say there are 144,000 who are virgin males… but yet, they JWs don’t seem to care about the virgin male part of the verse.

The anointed class was the sales slogan for membership for those born in the early part of the 20th century. Now the sale is on for membership in the Great Crowd (paradise on Earth).

If you were to claim you were anointed and had a heavenly future, they would think you were crazy.

 

[carol_marie]

The anointed class was the sales slogan for membership for those born in the early part of the 20th century. Now the sale is on for membership in the Great Crowd (paradise on Earth).

If you were to claim you were anointed and had a heavenly future, they would think you were crazy.

Yes, they would think you were crazy… they would try VERY HARD to talk you out of it but if you insisted they have a “loophole” to fall back on. They will say that despite the fact that all the “seats” were filled in 1925 - obviously one of the original 144,000 fell away from the truth & you’ve been chosen to take his spot. This actually happened to a friend of mine who, over time, decided she was one of the “annointed.” Unfortunatly it totally freaked out her children who now had to imagine spending eternity on earth away from their dear mother who would be in heaven without them.

Regarding that verse in Revelation that speaks of the 144,000. It is true that some verses in the Bible are to be taken literally - and some are to be taken figurativly - but show me another verse where a couple of WORDS are literal (144,000 - totally literal) but the REST of the sentence is figuragtive - Jewish men from specific tribes. But, that’s what the JW’s are asking us to believe.

 

[b_justb]

I keep on wondering about the way the JWs decide on who is a member of the anointed class.

My DH told me that these people just know the are of the anointed class. So if I wanted, I guess I could say I’m one of the anointed ones and they’d believe me, that is, if I were a JW?

So, how can the JWs take the Bible so “literally” in some ways, and not in others? The Bible does say there are 144,000 who are virgin males… but yet, they JWs don’t seem to care about the virgin male part of the verse.

The 144,000 are also very Jewish. 12,000 from each tribe, as noted in Revelation, which is a different list that from the OT denoting Jacob’s 12 sons.

Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin – From Rev.7:4-8

Gen 49:1-33 Is where Jacob gives his final blessing before his death.

Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin are listed as his sons.

In Gen 48:1-6 Jacob blesses Joseph’s children Ephraim and Manasseh at Joseph’s request.
Gen 48:5:

Your two sons, therefore, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I joined you here, shall be mine; Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine as much as Reuben and Simeon are mine. Progeny born to you after them shall remain yours; but their heritage shall be recorded in the names of their two brothers.

It is very interesting that John uses Naphtali in his list, who in the OT is considered a half tribe (along with his brother Manasseh), and leaves off Dan who in the OT is a full tribe.

In any case the 12,000 per tribe are defiantly Jewish in any sort of literal look at the verses in question in the Apocalypse. If we are to take the number 144,000 literally as to an exact number, then logically we’d have to take literally the gender, the creed, and sexuality of those numbered as well.

 

[yessisan]

The 144,000 are also very Jewish. 12,000 from each tribe, as noted in Revelation, which is a different list that from the OT denoting Jacobs 12 sons.

Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin – From Rev.7:4-8

Gen 49:1-33 Is where Jacob gives his final blessing before his death.

Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin are listed as his sons.

In Gen 48:1-6 Jacobs blesses Joseph’s children Ephraim and Manasseh at Joseph’s request. It is very interesting that John uses Naphtali in his list, who in the OT is considered a half tribe (along with his brother Manasseh), and leaves off Dan who in the OT is a full tribe.

In any case the 12,000 per tribe are defiantly Jewish in any sort of literal look at the verses in question in the Apocalypse. If we are to take the number 144,000 literally as to an exact number, then logically we’d have to take literally the gender, the creed, and sexuality of those numbered as well.

That’s what I say to my DH all the time. But he comes back with “the bible is symbolic” BS!!! I always say that to him and that it shouldn’t be taken so literally, and he says it’s not. He contradicts himself. Just another JW… I wonder if there is such a thing to make him see the TRUTH… I guess it’s called time…

But you know, when I brought up that thing about me saying I was one of the anointed ones to the JWs (if I were a JW), he said they’d probably believe me… That they’d think of me as one of the ones that’d be replacing one of the “fallen” ones…

 

[b_justb]

That’s what I say to my DH all the time. But he comes back with “the bible is symbolic” BS!!! I always say that to him and that it shouldn’t be taken so literally, and he says it’s not. He contradicts himself. Just another JW… I wonder if there is such a thing to make him see the TRUTH… I guess it’s called time…

But you know, when I brought up that thing about me saying I was one of the anointed ones to the JWs (if I were a JW), he said they’d probably believe me…

In the JW congregation I was in most of my childhood we had one of The Remnant™ and he was from Oklahoma with the last name of Wilson. He was married and had a daughter. How he lined up with anything denoting in Scripture as to who the 144,000 is, is beyond me. He just said he was one and ate the bread and drank the wine during The Memorial™.

Always remember that it is the Holy Spirt that convicts people, not us . I quote this not to brow beat but to encourage, OK?
Corinthians 7:13:

… if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy.

 

[yessisan]

In the JW congregation I was in most of my childhood we had one of the Remnant™ and he was from Oklahoma with the last name of Wilson. He was married and had a daughter. How he lined up with anything denoting in Scripture as to who the 144,000 is, is beyond me. He just said he was one and ate the bread and drank the wine during The Memorial™.

Isn’t it funny that the “anointed ones” are the only ones who get to eat the bread and drink the wine?

Aren’t we glad to be Catholic??? I sure AM!

Originally Posted by Corinthians 7:13, 14
… if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy.

That is why I am not going nuts about being married to my DH. I do believe that if I stay in the faith and am a good Catholic, that he’d be made holy along w/me.

 

[b_justb]

Isn’t it funny that the “anointed ones” are the only ones who get to eat the bread and drink the wine?

Aren’t we glad to be Catholic??? I sure AM!

Indeed - I edited my last while you were replying FYI

 

[yessisan]

Indeed - I edited my last while you were replying FYI

ditto

 

[spauline]

I keep on wondering about the way the JWs decide on who is a member of the anointed class.

My DH told me that these people just know the are of the anointed class. So if I wanted, I guess I could say I’m one of the anointed ones and they’d believe me, that is, if I were a JW?

So, how can the JWs take the Bible so “literally” in some ways, and not in others? The Bible does say there are 144,000 who are virgin males… but yet, they JWs don’t seem to care about the virgin male part of the verse.

Why not even go on the offensive? The way I look at it, Christ does not promise to protect us from physical harm, but from spiritual harm, if only we remain faithful to Him and His Truth. But where is the TOTALITY of His Truth to be found? Only in the*** Catholic Church***!

So, then, in my personal meditation, I view the Seal of God as that given to faithful Catholics, who are being protected in the forehead, that is, the intellect of their soul, from being “harmed” spiritually by being led astray. So then the trumpets are not so much literal physical calamities but symbols of progressive spiritual assaults on truth, so that only Catholics faithful are protected from this harm, culminating with the Mark of the Beast, which I would see appropriately as a total apostate, a person who denies the totality of everything God wills us to know, who is his own “god” in his mind.

I can refer one to an article I’ve written that elaborates on this considerably, if anyone is interested.

Blessings!
scott

 

[yessisan]

Why not even go on the offensive? The way I look at it, Christ does not promise to protect us from physical harm, but from spiritual harm, if only we remain faithful to Him and His Truth. But where is the TOTALITY of His Truth to be found? Only in the*** Catholic Church***!

So, then, in my personal meditation, I view the Seal of God as that given to faithful Catholics, who are being protected in the forehead, that is, the intellect of their soul, from being “harmed” spiritually by being led astray. So then the trumpets are not so much literal physical calamities but symbols of progressive spiritual assaults on truth, so that only Catholics faithful are protected from this harm, culminating with the Mark of the Beast, which I would see appropriately as a total apostate, a person who denies the totality of everything God wills us to know, who is his own “god” in his mind.

I can refer one to an article I’ve written that elaborates on this considerably, if anyone is interested.

Blessings!
scott

great point! I like the way you phrased it. Thing is how do you tell this to a JW? They are too hard headed to listen.

 

[spauline]

great point! I like the way you phrased it. Thing is how do you tell this to a JW? They are too hard headed to listen.

yeah, I know how that goes. Many are not even open to an argument from reason or philosophy. They want you to show them literal Scripture. Yeah, I guess it would be difficult to share, but at least you would have something deep to counter it and show Catholics can interpret Scripture too!

Anyway, blessings to you, yessisan, and thanks again.

 

[yessisan]

yeah, I know how that goes. Many are not even open to an argument from reason or philosophy. They want you to show them literal Scripture. Yeah, I guess it would be difficult to share, but at least you would have something deep to counter it and show Catholics can interpret Scripture too!

Anyway, blessings to you, yessisan, and thanks again.

Thank you! You have wonderful insights.

 

[b_justb]

yessisan:

That is why I am not going nuts about being married to my DH. I do believe that if I stay in the faith and am a good Catholic, that he’d be made holy along w/ me.

Mucho Nice-o !!!

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Revelation 14

1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Sorry, I am not a JW, and I do not see that text as saying they are “virgins”, The marriage bed is not defiled. I understand the Revelation text to simply mean that marriaged people did not cheat on their spouses.

 

[yessisan]

Revelation 14

1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Sorry, I am not a JW, and I do not see that text as saying they are “virgins”, The marriage bed is not defiled. I understand the Revelation text to simply mean that marriaged people did not cheat on their spouses.

If you read these verses in Spanish or Latin, it clearly states “virgin”.

Actually, even this one version does too (New American):

These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins 3

 

[spauline]

yes, but either way, I think the most important point for this text is for one to not be defiled in one’s mind, that is, to not suffer tainting the pure doctrine of the Lamb, and for this protection to be in its fullness, this is not possible except that one is a faithful Catholic. I could go on to show how I elaborate on the Trumpets, and how, building on TAN’s Father Kramer, we can see the fifth trumpet, that is, the first great woe, as heresy, or, more appropriately, Protestantism, amongst other layers of meaning.

 

[spauline]

yes, thank you for bringing this up about chastity! Those Sealed are those who preserve their chastity in the depths of the intellect of their soul. Who will not be defiled by the black stains of false doctrine, that corrupt the fullness of Christ’s light, which alone is without blemish in the Catholic Church. Yes, thank you for bringing that up. That will enhance my arguments for my interp!

 

[Damascus]

Yessian,

I think you are a saint in the making, if not already. I will be happy to say “I knew her on CAF” !

Your husband is blessed to have you loving him so much and trying so very hard to help him, I am so inspired by hearing how hard you really witness the Gospel in your heart, and out of Love for another. Its really touching.

 

[Marilena]

QUOTE=yessisan;

“My DH told me that these people just know the are of the anointed class. So if I wanted, I guess I could say I’m one of the anointed ones and they’d believe me, that is, if I were a JW?”

No, because only the anointed ones are elderly.

“So, how can the JWs take the Bible so “literally” in some ways, and not in others? The Bible does say there are 144,000 who are virgin males… but yet, they JWs don’t seem to care about the virgin male part of the verse.”

i never heard of the virgin male thingy, but as for them caring, well, they do but only about what they believe to be the “truth”.