The 1st Century Church Looked Like the Catholic Church

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Radical
God has granted you miracles? This is wonderful…can’t say I am as interested in the early church as hearing about the miracles, though!
a) Petrine supremacy as taught today by the CC
b) apart from the virgin birth, the Marian doctrines
c) indulgences, treasury of merits
d) a real bodily presence
e) apostolic succession as taught today by the CC
Yikes, can you narrow the topics down a bit? We are talking about BOOKS of information on all of them. How about just the apostolic succession or the real bodily presence?
I take it you mean the bit about Wills being a “Catholic”. .
Wills…look, I am struggling here to try and find a nice way to put this. Mmm…let’s just say he would argue, instead of agree, with many of the dogmas in the catechism.
The CC can claim that it is the one true church, but that doesn’t make it true.
You’re kidding. The Catholic church has managed to survive two thousand years of CATHOLICS–proof positive to me.

May God go on granting you miracles, Annem
 
In one famous exorcism, demons admitted to starting the various heresies in the Church. I believe this is the same for Islam and other false religions too. Though they do all have some truth in them.
Out of curiosity, which exorcism was this?
 
Out of curiosity, which exorcism was this?
Those were some dumb demons!!!:eek: If you were a demon and you had been fooling Christians out of their faith throughout history with heresies and lies and other weapons of mass spiritual destruction, why in the heck would you admit to it and point out your strategies? It’s like when generals go on CNN and say where they’re looking for Bin Ladin or some terrorist? lol…dumb! I guess we can thank these demons for giving us some heads-up on their agenda! lol
 
Those were some dumb demons!!!:eek: If you were a demon and you had been fooling Christians out of their faith throughout history with heresies and lies and other weapons of mass spiritual destruction, why in the heck would you admit to it and point out your strategies? It’s like when generals go on CNN and say where they’re looking for Bin Ladin or some terrorist? lol…dumb! I guess we can thank these demons for giving us some heads-up on their agenda! lol
Maybe they were the Geraldo of demons. 😉
 
Out of curiosity, which exorcism was this?
I don’t know the name of where it took place, but I know some details. They were forced to tell the truth in the presence of a Protestant king and several servants, and they said they hated the truth.

I should have said it before, but I’ll say it now: Demons can lie, so you shouldn’t trust them. And people can lie too. So it’s best to research and seek the truth, rather than rely on exorcisms, you know?
 
When you consider the fatc that the early Church (i.e. first few centuries after Jesus died) followed Catholic Church practices and indesputably believed in the eucharist, had the pope as head of the church, had priests (presbyers), bishops etc, how can protestants claim that the catholic church is not the one true church?
LOL the first century church looked nothing like the Roman Catholic Church.

paganchristianity.org/

BTW Viola is as hard on protestants as he is with Catholics
 
Those were some dumb demons!!!:eek: If you were a demon and you had been fooling Christians out of their faith throughout history with heresies and lies and other weapons of mass spiritual destruction, why in the heck would you admit to it and point out your strategies? It’s like when generals go on CNN and say where they’re looking for Bin Ladin or some terrorist? lol…dumb! I guess we can thank these demons for giving us some heads-up on their agenda! lol
Almost as dumb as folks believing the Father of lies.
 
Radical

God has granted you miracles? This is wonderful…can’t say I am as interested in the early church as hearing about the miracles, though!
well there are miracles and then there are miracles. I view life as a miracle, but as far as something that I could show to an agnostic as a miracluous event, I’ve got nothing.
Yikes, can you narrow the topics down a bit? We are talking about BOOKS of information on all of them. How about just the apostolic succession or the real bodily presence?
Jon Hus suggested a good approach (just before your first post addressed to me)
You’re kidding. The Catholic church has managed to survive two thousand years of CATHOLICS–proof positive to me.
No I am not kidding…the assertion is that the 1st century church looked like the modern CC. History shows otherwise. It is true that asserting a claim does not make that claim true, and it is also true that repeating that assertion still does not make the claim true. Rather than simply repeating the claim that the CC is 2000 years old, you need to demonstrate the validity of that claim. This is how I described the problem with your claim in a different thread:

With this sort of claim one must realize that legitimate reasons exist for not equating the universal church of the first centuries with what is now known as the Catholic Church. To borrow from biological science, one can start with a particular species and through genetic mutations have that species undergo such significant changes and developments that the end result is no longer compatible (from a breeding perspective) with the source species. The same could be claimed wrt the CC. It has undergone a number of developments where it has seen doctrine produced and expanded. The question then becomes whether the current CC is doctrinally compatible with the universal church of the first centuries. Would the likes of Martyr, Tertullian, Ignatius, Origen or Augustine embrace or reject the modern CC? No doubt the mere suggestion of that question will ruffle many feathers…but the fact is that a number of modern Catholic scholars (historians and theologians) recognize that not all modern Catholic doctrines are found in the ancient church (causing many of them to reject certain modern doctrines). This should cause one to at least ask the question (unless one is so committed to endorsing the CC notwithstanding any sort of historical evidence, that asking the question can not even be contemplated).

Hope that explains my position a bit better. May God bless you.
 
Would the likes of Martyr, Tertullian, Ignatius, Origen or Augustine embrace or reject the modern CC? No doubt the mere suggestion of that question will ruffle many feathers…but the fact is that a number of modern Catholic scholars (historians and theologians) recognize that not all modern Catholic doctrines are found in the ancient church (causing many of them to reject certain modern doctrines). This should cause one to at least ask the question (unless one is so committed to endorsing the CC notwithstanding any sort of historical evidence, that asking the question can not even be contemplated).
You can’t be serious…

In Justin Martyr’s First Apology alone, we see clearly expounded sacramental doctrines of (1) baptismal regeneration; (2) eucharist in which bread and wine are transmutated into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ; (3) reserving the Sacrament;

In Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho we see (4) the Eucharist as a sacrifice; (5) proof that Esdras (deuterocanonical/apocryphal) is considered part of Sacred Scripture; (6) reference to Mary as “The Virgin”; (7) reference to only two advents (no secret “rapture” before the parousia, to be found here); (8) Church is the new Israel (refutation of the dispensationalist idea that Israel and the Church are separate); (9) repudiation of the heresy that God imputes righteousness to sinners because of their faith instead of actually making them righteous; (10) you must repent before being judged

In Tertullian’s **On the Flesh of Christ **we see (11) expounding on the Virgin Mary being the new Eve.

Tertullian’s On Baptism reveals teaching that (12) baptism is a sacrament that sanctifies us through the washing away of sins; (13) the type of water or “mode” of baptism is of no consequence because the water itself is holy; (14) the necessity of baptism for salvation; (15) bishops, priests and deacons should be the normal ministers of baptism, despite the fact that laity could validly baptize; (16) a period of catechesis before baptism for adults asking for it

Tertullian’s **On Prayer **reveals (17) the practice of saying the Our Father (Lord’s Prayer) as something Christians do repeatedly and often; (18) the necessity of being present at mass; (19) the Eucharist as a sacrifice; (20) reception and reservation of the Host; (21) stations (praying the hours); (22) kneeling

Tertullian’s Against Praxeus deals with (23) the doctrine of the Trinity; (24) suffering with Christ; (25) the procession of the Son from the Father in unity with the Holy Spirit (as we say in the Nicene Creed)

Tertullian’s Against All Heresies talks about (26) the Catholic church, (27) apostolic succession (28) the Church as one institution; (29) the episcopacy; (30) the succession by Clement of Peter; (31) being admitted to communion (32) authority of the Church coming from Rome; (33) the apostolic places of authority as having “thrones”; (34) catechumens; (35) exorcisms; (36) Christ committing the Virgin Mary to the Church and the Church being judged for how it treats her;

Ignatius** to Polycorp** speaks of (37) the necessity of acting in accordance with the bishop; (38) reiterating the threefold ministry of bishop, priests and deacons; (39) having your marriage blessed by the Church, the bishop; the rest of his writings reiterate over and over again the concept of obedience to the bishop

There’s 39 listed ways to recognize the Catholic Church in the “early Church” right there, and I’ve barely scratched the surface of the Fathers’ writings. Have you even attempted to read any of these?
 
When you consider the fatc that the early Church (i.e. first few centuries after Jesus died) followed Catholic Church practices and indesputably believed in the eucharist, had the pope as head of the church, had priests (presbyers), bishops etc, how can protestants claim that the catholic church is not the one true church?
The best way to understand why Protestants make that claim is to learn about the reasons for the split, the Reformation. Read about Martin Luther’s 95 theses, and the abuses of power that were occurring in the Church at that time. Many of the issues that Luther brought up (he posted a query in a forum, which in his time was the church door!) revolved around Papal indulgences, and the power the Pope and clergy claimed over the afterlife, what would happen to the faithful when they died. People were scared into paying money to reduce the time they would spend in purgatory. The Church emphasized “buying your way into heaven” over living the Gospel, Luther felt. This included paying for funeral masses and for masses for deceased family members, to help them get through purgatory a little faster. Luther proposed that the church’s control over a person ended at their death, when God took over, and that the Pope could not and should not hold people hostage to help him remodel St. Peter’s (which is where a lot of the money was going, after the middle man took his cut).

Somewhat reminds you of Jesus chasing the money changers out of the Temple; to Luther that is what the Vatican had become.

Another issue was confession. Luther did not believe that Priests had the power to forgive sins, that only God could do that. He tied this into indulgences because they were being used to bypass having to confess sins. Other reformers, before, during and after Luther, had other issues with what was happening in the Church.

To these men, the Catholic Church was no longer the true church of Christ because it had strayed from the teachings of Jesus. It had been the “one true church” in the 1st Century. But that was not case, they argued, 1500 years later.

It all started to blow up when Luther posted those 95 theses, was initially ignored by the area heirarchy, and then started circulating them privately. The printing press fanned the flames by helping spread his and other reformers’ ideas. They touched a nerve with a lot of people and the rest, as they say, is history.

Although the Catholic Church today does not suffer from the abusive excesses that it did in the 1500’s, to Protestants it is still the same ole church, and still not the one true church of Jesus. I doubt whether that argument will ever be settled.
 
=ConfusedTim;5488752]When you consider the fatc that the early Church (i.e. first few centuries after Jesus died) followed Catholic Church practices and indesputably believed in the eucharist, had the pope as head of the church, had priests (presbyers), bishops etc, how can protestants claim that the catholic church is not the one true church?
Two possible answers that come to mind.

First*** if they admit up to THEE obvious and historically proveable truth, they must then deny their own belief system***.

Second ***Their claim, such as it is 🤷 does not or more accurately did not began in denial of the Catholic Church being the ONE TRUE CHURCH of Christ, as the leaders of the Protestant Revolution came out of this same One True Church saying that what was is no more; that the Church Christ founded [never denied] had some how lost favor with God. There is no evidence other than their opinion of this fact, and MUCH evidence that it is far from factual and truthful.

For example look at the Mass, and the other Sacraments still practiced in much the same manner as 2,000 years ago. Look at an unbrokrn line of Popes [names and dates of service are available] from Peter to Benedict; look at the Catholic Bible which is the same as the first complete Bible, edited and transcribed by Saint Jerome into the Latin Vulgate, the only BIBLE in existence for about the next 1,300 years! Then their is the unchaged body of doctrine and dogma, also unchanged.

Christ commitment [One, Holy, Catholic and Apolostolic] refers to His Church, not it’s leaders. That was true then and now.

If they are going to justify themselves and the 30,000 PLUS churches that have resulted from the Revolution***

If they are unable to deny the ONE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST [Mt. 16;18-19] then they cannot justify their not being a part of Christ ONLY Church. {The rest are at best step-children}.

Love and prayers,
 
Radical
No I am not kidding…the assertion is that the 1st century church looked like the modern CC. History shows otherwise. It is true that asserting a claim does not make that claim true, and it is also true that repeating that assertion still does not make the claim true. Rather than simply repeating the claim that the CC is 2000 years old, you need to demonstrate the validity of that claim. This is how I described the problem with your claim in a different thread:
Hi. Well, I have to say that the first century church’s dogmas won’t be exactly the same because the church was in its infancy. All the basic truths were already there, but the full understanding, for example, of the role of the Holy Spirit would be hammered out over four centuries.

Or don’t you agree that it took four centuries to understand the role of the Holy Spirit? Surely you will admit that Protestants believe what we came to believe in the 4th century; or not?
The same could be claimed wrt the CC. It has undergone a number of developments where it has seen doctrine produced and expanded. The question then becomes whether the current CC is doctrinally compatible with the universal church of the first centuries. Would the likes of Martyr, Tertullian, Ignatius, Origen or Augustine embrace or reject the modern CC? No doubt the mere suggestion of that question will ruffle many feathers
Don’t forget–it is the Protestants who want to be exactly the same as the 1st century church. Catholics have a very different view, which is that although the doctrines may have been held in an infant form then, their full explanation would grow over time.

And as for poor Martyr, etc., of COURSE some of their statements are in error, compared to later developments of doctrine. There is hardly a church father you can name who hasn’t said some egregious error. But, to the Catholic, so what? It wasn’t their fault that a dogma hadn’t been settled. THey were perfectly at liberty to state whatever they wanted. It was their statements, their arguments, led by the Holy Spirit, that would lead us to our beliefs now.
.but the fact is that a number of modern Catholic scholars (historians and theologians) recognize that not all modern Catholic doctrines are found in the ancient church (causing many of them to reject certain modern doctrines). This should cause one to at least ask the question (unless one is so committed to endorsing the CC notwithstanding any sort of historical evidence, that asking the question can not even be contemplated).
Oh my, this is not exactly true. Scholars are NOT at liberty to challenge settled dogma, so if you have been reading ‘scholars’ who challenge basic beliefs, they can go on calling themselves morning, noon and night and it won’t make it true. If they do, they are not good Catholics. Here’s a fast, easy way to find out what the Catholic church believes: go to your library and get out a Catholic catechism. It has everything there.

I know what you mean about miracles…isn’t it the best and most glorious of miracles that both of us believe? I love all my my Protestant brothers and sisters and hope to see them in heaven! I am so happy to believe, and so sorry for everyone (including the rest of my family, sigh) who is an atheist.

May God grant you a million more miracles, Annem
 
John Hus
but what I’m asking for is a little direction as to where in the 8 thousand pages of writings to look. I will read 300 or 400 pages, just point me in the right direction.
Hi John, if you are ever curious about exactly what a Catholic believes, just check the Catholic catechism, available in every library and bookstore.

Remember, however, the Catholic church does not claim it wants to look like the 1st century church. That is a Protestant desire. We only claim that the church already held all the deposit of truth, but held the dogmas in an infant form.

As, for example, the beliefs about the Holy Spirit, which would take 4 centuries of constant Catholic scholars and laymen arguing out the doctrine.

May God grant you a million miracles, ANnem
 
Because they ignore history, just like the Muslims and other non-Catholic religions do. They close their eyes and drift away from the truth. It´s simple as that.
**Acts 2:42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread *{not flesh} *and to prayer.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 " 7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are {in fact} unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."**

**1 Corinthians 10:15-18 *“I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say. *16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.”

1 Corinthians 11:23-27 "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way {He took} the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink {it,} in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. 27 {WARNING}Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord."

Here is an exert from John White in relation to historical facts concerning the “early church - universal”

“OK, the New Testament…was a process undertaken by the early Church, which was thoroughly Catholic.”
“Catholic, or Roman Catholic?” John asked.
Paul looked surprised by the question. “There is a difference?”
“Of course” John replied. “Catholic simply means ‘universal,’ and it was a term used in the early Church to differentiate true believers from those outside. ‘Roman Catholic’ carries far more ‘baggage’ than the mere term ‘Catholic.’ It includes, as it is used by modern Roman apologists, the idea of Papal authority, doctrines such as purgatory, indulgences, Marian dogmas, etc. The early church was ‘catholic’ but it was surely not ‘Roman Catholic.’”

Paul looked flustered at this point. “Well, I disagree. The early Christians believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in Holy Communion…”
“But not in transubstantiation, right?” John inserted.
“Well, they may not have used the term…”
“So why do you interpret their belief in a ‘real presence’ as being relevant to a Roman Catholic dogma defined a thousand years later?”
“Well, it’s one of the many evidences that the Roman Catholic Church has been the one true Church all along…”
“And if that were the case, Paul, it would follow that what the early Fathers believed regarding what you call the ‘real presence’ would fit with what Rome teaches today, which is manifestly not the case. You will not find the early Fathers setting aside consecrated hosts, for example, in a tabernacle or monstrance for the express purpose of worshipping it, which is a natural and necessary result of a belief in transubstantiation. So, whatever they meant by ‘real presence’ it surely was not what you as a Roman Catholic believe today.”

“That’s just not the case!” Paul retorted. “Even Ignatius clearly believed in what I believe. He said in Romans 7.3, “I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Christ who was of the seed of David; and for a draught I desire His blood, which is love incorruptible.”

“Think about what you just quoted, Paul” John replied. “There is nothing about transubstantiation in those words. When you realize the background of Ignatius’ writings, and his battle against gnosticism, as well as Jesus’ words in John 6 about Him being the bread of heaven, the words of Ignatius make perfect sense without reading into them any kind of Aristotelian dogma of accidents and substance, etc. and etc. Besides, if you really think this is such a universal belief, please explain the following four citations to me:
Code:
“The sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, which we receive, is a divine thing, because by it we are made partakers of the divine-nature.  Yet the substance or nature of the bread and wine does not cease.  And assuredly the image and the similitude of the body and blood of Christ are celebrated in the performance of the mysteries.” Gelasius,  bishop of Rome, in Jacques Paul Migne, Patrologiae Latinae, Tractatus de duabis naturis Adversus Eutychen et Nestorium 14.

“The mystical emblems of the body and blood of Christ continue in their original essence and form, they are visible and tangible as they were before [the consecration]; but the contemplation of the spirit and of  faith sees in them that which they have become, and they are adored also as that which they are to believers.”  (Theodoret, Dialogue ii, Opera ed. Hal. tom. iv p. 126).

In other words, in respect of His divine presence we always have Christ; in respect of His presence in the flesh it was rightly said to the disciples, 'Me you will not have always.'  In this respect the Church enjoyed His presence only for a few days: now it possesses Him by faith, without seeing Him with the eyes....He left the world by a bodily withdrawal, He proceeded  to the Father by His ascension man, but He forsook not the world in the ruling activity of His presence.
**
CONTINUED NEXT POST **
 
CONTINUED

The Lord Jesus, in the discourse which He addressed to His disciples after the supper, when Himself in immediate proximity to His passion, and, as it were, on the eve of departure, and of depriving them of His bodily presence while continuing His spiritual presence to all His disciples till the very end of the world…" (Augustine, John: Tractates 50, 92, 102, and 118).
Code:
Who is the bread of the Kingdom of God, but He who says, "I am the living Bread which came down from heaven?"  Do not get your mouth ready, but your heart.  On this occasion it was that the parable of this supper was set forth.  Lo, we believe in Christ, we receive Him with faith.  In receiving Him we know what to think of.  We receive but little, and are nourished in the heart.  It is not then what is seen, but what is believed, that feeds us.  Therefore we too have not sought for that outward sense.

     This is then to eat the meat, not that which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life.  To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach?  Believe, and you have eaten already.  (Augustine John: Tractate 25:12).
Source: vintage.aomin.org/Morrow.html

Moral of the story: Getting history right can lead one to better understanding.
 
=Radical I would suggest that you start by listening to the Protestant explanations (as opposed to listening to non-Protestants tell you why Protestants can be so ignorant as to not believe all that the Catholic Church claims for itself).
It’s nice when we can agree on something. You are right on the need 4 Catholics to actually listen to Protestants views.
One of the greatest dividing lines is the attitude one has for the ECFs. The Catholic tends to think that (typically) if an ECF taught (X) in 300 AD, then (X) must have been believed in 150 AD and if (X) was believed in 150 AD then it must have been taught by the apostles themselves in 75 AD.
**Friend, we are a bible Church, solidly founded on the bible and our beliefs stem from the bible. Your bible is but an altered version of the only bible in existence for some 1,300 years. You dismiss to quickly and lightly the 2,000 consecutive years of service the Catholic Church. As to the “novelities” sure in a 2,000 year period many surfaced, some still hang around today. That is why thee Church has held Church Councils. There have been some 21 Councils over the years to correct, define, explain and teach Truth. I assume [at great risk] that we can agree that on any single issue it is possible for only ONE truth; THEE TRUTH to exist?

Councils seema better way than to just start your own church.**
Further, there is a belief in Catholicism that the Catholic church is the one true church and that a certain promise by Christ must be interpreted to mean that the one true church can not officially teach error.
***To not accept the Catholic understanding which is historically proveable and solidly Biblical seems to lack any degree of logic and objectivity. If history and thee bible are wrong, then on what proveable basis can you hold such an uninlightened position? PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION. What am I not understanding? ***

***Friend did you have the same knowledge in gradeschool as you did in colledge? Is not a learning curve common, even normal? The Catholic Church is 2,000 years old and yet both doctrine and dogma’s taught by the Apostles are still believed and practiced today. The practice of the Seven Sacraments instituted by Christ Himself are practiced very much today as they were nearly 2,000 years ago. The Mass of 1,800 years agos is nearly the same as the Mass celebrated today.

The ECF’s teachings are preservered in many historical documents. ANY and ALL teachings that the CHURCH [take that to mean the POPE and the Magistrium] have proclaimed on matters of [and ONLY on matters of] FAITH and or Morals, have NEVER - EVER changed. Further understanding and clairification yes, change NO! PLEASE FEEL FREE TO PROVE ME WRONG!***
Further, since I do not believe that the CC is the one true church, the alleged promise by Christ (to keep the one true church from officially teaching error) would not apply to he CC
This is one of the most absurd,abused and disingenuous positions put forth by the Protestant churchs. How can the Catholic Church NOT BE the ONE TRUE CHURCH of Christ, when it was and is the ONLYChristian Church in existence when Christ was on planet earth before His death, and resurection:shrug: 😊 How old is your church or any of the other 30,000 non-catholic churches? Maybe 400 years. If He didn’t found His Church when He was on earth, when did He? How did he and how do you explain thee Bible that has been around for at least 1,600 years? I do value your opinions, but please, a bit of intellectual honesty is called for!
Indisputably believed what about the Eucharist? A Catholic author by the name of J T O’Connor, wrote a book on the Eucharist called “The Hidden Manna”. That book seems rather respected in catholic circles. O’Connor, a fellow that believes that Augustine held to a real presence, felt that he had to acknowledge that van der Meer, the author of a renowned work on Augustine, concluded that with respect to Augustine: “It is perfectly true, however, that there is nowhere any indication of any awareness of the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament, or that he thought very much about this subject or made it the object of devotion; that was alien to the people of that age – at any rate in the West.”
Please show us from the writtings of Agustine that he did not believe, teach and have anything but the deepest respect and proper understanding of Christ Real presence in the Eucharist.

As for your claims of Catholic writers. Today one has little trouble finding a fallen away catholic, who like millions of Protestants insist on a right granted by God to sin and to sin greviously. Lk. 17: 1 And he said to his disciples, "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come! 2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.


As one goes down your list, Protestants tend to conclude that your listed items (plus, of course, the Marian doctrines and indulgences) are things that have been added to the original “Rule of Faith” and have now become mandatory beliefs.

[Friend you have either the wrong or no understanding of 2 Tim.3:16 and Jn. 21:25 The Church was started by Christ, guided by Christ and is kept truthful and holy by Christ, but He allowed Peter and his 265 consecutive to rule, guide, form and instruct with His help what is to be helad as definitive truth.]
 
Not only did the First Century Church look like the Catholic Church, but it was the Catholic Church. 😃
 
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