The cup of wine at the wedding in Cana?
That’s a scary site, I’m not sure it’s legitimate. What does this mean, anyway? (bottom left)
I think the “Catholic Resource Network” might be a kid in a basement. I have no idea what following those instructions might do.
During the Jewish Passover meal the third cup is called “The Cup of Blessing.” St Paul in 1 Cor 10:16 calls the Eucharistic cup," The Cup of Blessing.". Thus, the cup that Jesus blessed at the Last Supper would be the third cup. The first two cups were not mentioned presumably because the emphasis was on the third cup, when normally they would eat the lamb. But, instead of that, Jesus offers himself as the new Lamb who’s flesh must be eaten.
Actually, AFAIK the cups of wine really have no formal designations in Judaism. There is the Ashkenazic custom of filling the 'Cup of Elijah after the third cup (and the ‘Cup of Miriam’ that some also fill beside Elijah’s at this point, just to be gender-equal
), but beyond this, the cups are just called, for lack of a better term, ‘first cup’ or ‘second cup’ and so on. Now a number of folks today (mostly Christians or Messianic Jews) may try to apply different names for each cup, but these are all unofficial, and the names could vary depending on the Seder.
I almost expect that every household or every community would have had their own ‘flavor’ of celebrating the feast, doing things as their fathers and their fathers before them have done. While rabbinic works such as the Mishna and the Talmud does purport to transmit the way many things were done in those days when the Temple still stood, we can’t be too reliant on them and take them on face value as sources for Second Temple Judaism, since it seems that they often actually reflect more ‘how we (the rabbis) would have wanted things done’ than ‘how things were done’. In short, more of an ideal fantasy than historical reality.I only posted the link because it has a transcript of what the OP was trying to remember.
Then I suggest you don’t follow the instructions.
Interesting as always Patrick. So do you think Jesus’ refusal of wine prior to his being nailed to the cross and drinking of the wine just before death would have been a sign to those present that the passover was being extended to his crucifixtion, that the passover included his crucifixion and ended with the drinking of the wine on the cross?Actually, AFAIK the cups of wine really have no formal designations in Judaism. There is the Ashkenazic custom of filling the 'Cup of Elijah after the third cup (and the ‘Cup of Miriam’ that some also fill beside Elijah’s at this point, just to be gender-equal
With all due respect to Mr. Hahn, I think that the one flaw in his interpretation (which I once held actually) is the assumption that Passover meals during the Second Temple period were performed like modern Seders. On the contrary, it is more likely that the Passover meal - like many other aspects of Judaism - was not yet fully developed in Jesus’ time and was yet still in a fluid, unfixed, evolving form. We can’t just assume that the ritual stayed as it was after more than 2000 years; we must reconstruct, and it is difficult, if not impossible, to reconstruct exactly what happened in a 1st century Passover celebration.
We do know the basic structure and the basic elements of a Passover meal, but what I’m saying is that it is hard to reenact in detail what Jews two millenia would have specifically done. It’s not like they had Haggadahs handy like today.
That’s not what I’m saying. What I mean is that, you just can’t look at a modern Seder or leaf through a Haggadah and assume uncritically that the ritual performed or described is exactly the same as practiced 2000 or even 3000 years ago. It would be like assuming that the order of Mass as said in churches today is the same as was performed in the 12th, the 8th or even the 2nd or 1st century: the gestures, words, etc. The basic structure would have still been the same, but I expect the ritual would have not: it would have been honed, adapted and tidied up more and more as time went.
I don’t know!
The Cup of Santification- Cup 1 (Festival Blessing)
I took the liberty of examining a number of Haggadahs available on the Internet, Jewish and non-Jewish. Sure enough there was a variety of names, or a lack thereof.
You might be interested in the following book: Passover and Easter : origin and history to modern times / edited by Paul F. Bradshaw and Lawrence A. Hoffman. There is some evidence that the Jewish seder, as it developed over the centuries, was influenced by the Eucharist, rather than the other way around.
I believe it would be hugely presumptuous on your part to believe that Jewish seder would have been influenced by the Eucharist…at all.
Why would it be ‘presumptuous’, if I may ask?
You can read the evidence and decide for yourself.
Yes, I’ve read it. As I’ve said, Hahn assumptions aren’t well supported because his methods are anachronistic; thus work is highly speculative. Speculative inquiry is fine, but you have to let people know what you’re doing and how tentative the conclusions are.
Yes, I believe Jesus is really present in the Eucharist. That doesn’t really have anything to do with the Seder though.