The 4 marks of the church(es?)

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Leo_The_Great

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First, I abhor the branch thory.

Second, I abhor the branch theory,

Third, I am having an issue:

The 4marks of the Church, its apostolicity, Catholicity, unity and holiness must be present to be considered the true church; But,
  1. The Roman Catholic Catholic Church is
    a. One in matters of :
    i. Faith
    ii. Liturgy
    iii. Spirituality
    iv. Morals.

    b. Holy in
    i. Posessing the Seven Sacraments
    ii. Possesing the useful Sacramentals
    iii. Possesing Holy members that attest to its holiness
    iv. Being Apostolic and ultimately founded by Christ.

    c. Catholic in
    i. its Faith is literally Kato-Holicos (According to the whole, or the Phronema or Sensus Fidei of the Church)
    ii. Its Moral life is Catholic, according to the Whole.
    iii. It is found worldwide and
    iv. Calls all to repentance and the apostolic faith.

    d. Apostolic in being able to trace its origin through a legitimate mutually recognized episcopal succession of ordination, Especially in the Pope.
  2. The Eastern Orthodox Church is
    a. One in matters of :
    i. Faith
    ii. Liturgy
    iii. Spirituality
    iv. Morals.

    b. Holy in
    i. Posessing at least Seven Mysteries
    ii. Possesing the useful Sacramentals
    iii. Possesing Holy members that attest to its holiness
    iv. Being Apostolic and ultimately founded by Christ.

    c. Catholic in
    i. its Faith is literally Kato-Holicos (According to the whole, or the Phronema of the Church)
    ii. Its Moral life is Catholic, according to the Whole.
    iii. It is found worldwide and
    iv. Calls all to repentance and the apostolic faith.

    d. Apostolic in being able to trace its origin through a legitimate mutually recognized episcopal succession of ordination.
  3. The Oriental Non-Chalcedoninans are
    a. One in matters of :
    i. Faith
    ii. Liturgy
    iii. Spirituality
    iv. Morals.

    b. Holy in
    i. Posessing at least Seven Mysteries
    ii. Possesing the useful Sacramentals
    iii. Possesing Holy members that attest to its holiness
    iv. Being Apostolic and ultimately founded by Christ.

    c. Catholic in
    i. its Faith is literally Kato-Holicos (According to the whole, or the Phronema or Sensus Fidei of the Church)
    ii. Its Moral life is Catholic, according to the Whole.
    iii. It is found worldwide and
    iv. Calls all to repentance and the apostolic faith.

    d. Apostolic in being able to trace its origin through a legitimate mutually recognized episcopal succession of ordination.
  4. The Assyrian Church of the East is
    a. One in matters of :
    i. Faith
    ii. Liturgy
    iii. Spirituality
    iv. Morals.

    b. Holy in
    i. Posessing the at least seven Mysteries (albeit in a different arrangement)
    ii. Possesing the useful Sacramentals
    iii. Possesing Holy members that attest to its holiness
    iv. Being Apostolic and ultimately founded by…
c. Catholic in
i. its Faith is literally Kato-Holicos (According to the whole, or the Phronema or Sensus Fidei of the Church)
ii. Its Moral life is Catholic, according to the Whole.
iii. It is found worldwide and
iv. Calls all to repentance and the apostolic faith.

d. Apostolic in being able to trace its origin through a legitimate mutually recognized episcopal succession of ordination.

Israel is the model of the Church. Israel was divided into the northern and southern kingdoms. Therefore the church…

If all the Major apostolic churches are internally consistent , then How is it Oh-so-clear that only ONE church posses all four marks?
 
Leo_The_Great said:
…

If all the Major apostolic churches are internally consistent , then How is it Oh-so-clear that only ONE church posses all four marks?
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CCC [811](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/811.htm’)😉 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.

CCC [834](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/834.htm’)😉 Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome "which presides in charity."315 "For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord."316 Indeed, “from the incarnate Word’s descent to us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here [at Rome] to be their only basis and foundation since, according to the Savior’s promise, the gates of hell have never prevailed against her.”
 
Though all apostolic Churches may share three of the four marks of the Church, I personally don’t understand how any other group of Churches can claim to be Catholic except that group which formally calls itself “the Catholic Church.”

The Catholic Church is the only Church which contains in its bosom every single Tradition that was present when the Church was united in the first millenium. It alone truly and fully lives “according to the whole.” Though the OOC is a worthy second, it does not have the Byzantine nor the ACoE Traditions. The EOC can only claim the Byzantine Tradition, and the ACoE can only claim the Assyrian Tradition.

Blessings
 
The other Apostolic Churches , IMO, do have all four marks. I am not positing the branch theory. There are not three branches of the Church. There is one Church that has been inflicted with painful wounds. The Orthodox Churches all maintain some form of unity with the Catholic Church or otherwise Orthodox Christians would not be permitted to receive communion in Catholic Churches and Orthodox Saints would not be accepted upon recognition of complete union.
 
Formosus said:
The other Apostolic Churches , IMO, do have all four marks. I am not positing the branch theory. There are not three branches of the Church. There is one Church that has been inflicted with painful wounds. The Orthodox Churches all maintain some form of unity with the Catholic Church or otherwise Orthodox Christians would not be permitted to receive communion in Catholic Churches and Orthodox Saints would not be accepted upon recognition of complete union.
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The issue is complex. However, I think the unions of Lyons and Florence prove that both sides have at least acknowledged in the past that we are part of the same body, but separated over human divisions. Likewise with the Miaphysites - it was a misunderstanding of language, and it was hurt by the fact that the Byzantines spoke Greek and the miaphysites spoke other languages (Coptic and Syriac).

The Assyrians - well, I think it’s harder to claim them - denying Mary as Theotokos is pretty bad, unless they only meant we shouldn’t call her that, even if it’s true.

Despite polemicists on either side, I think that there is a certain legitimacy to the claim that they are one church, even though they are divided by official schism. Especially since (according to us, at least) we share the same Christ in the chalice.
 
Assume for a minute that the Schisms between the apostolic are somehow (miraculously) based on HUMAN misunderstanding. Assume there was obviously no intent to destroy the one holy catholic and apostolic church.

Are the schisms that are a result of HUMAN misunderstanding, real schisms? Is there any REAL spiritual consequence?

How else do the Orthodox (Oriental and Byzantine) and the ACoE still exist today? What about what Gamaliel said to the Sanhedrin “If this be of man, it will die, but if it is of God…”

And who knows perhaps GOd has a special charism for these separated apostolic churches, guiding them for such a time as when union as possible. Why else would they exist?

Communism and Islam should have destroyed Eastern Orthodoxy long ago…but here they are. Their survival is an attestation to the love and Mercy of God, while the Latins have actually been fairly well protected through the centuries. SO, it seems to me MORE of a miracle that we even have Eastern Churches as opposed to western.

TO say nothing of the Assyrians, I mean in the MODERN world we have Aramaic speaking communities that offer the earliest known divine liturgy with virtually NO change in form for over 1,940 years…Not to mention they preserve some of the earliest understandings on the enumeration of the divine mysteries…But interestingly marriage is not sacramental to them, or at least they do not enumerate it as such…

However I do take umbrage at the Orthodox for one thing:

They have morally capitulated to Contraception, and they have virtually no visibility in the Pro-life movement?

SO, all their claim to adherence to tradition is really shot down. “He who is guilty of one part of the law, is guilty of the whole.”
 
Leo:

In Alaska, where 1 in 5 are Orthodox, mostly OCA, the Orthodox are about 1/4 of the pro-life movement’s visible folks… and about 1/2 are Catholics (Catholics comprise about 1/4 of the state’s population). The remainder are assorted protestants.

I think you’re just not seeing them because, outside of Alaska, the Orthodox are just so rare as to not be readily visible, and further, tend not to participate in the interfaith prayer services.
 
Aramis said:
Leo:

In Alaska, where 1 in 5 are Orthodox, mostly OCA, the Orthodox are about 1/4 of the pro-life movement’s visible folks… and about 1/2 are Catholics (Catholics comprise about 1/4 of the state’s population). The remainder are assorted protestants.

I think you’re just not seeing them because, outside of Alaska, the Orthodox are just so rare as to not be readily visible, and further, tend not to participate in the interfaith prayer services.
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We can only pray that the rift is healed and that the ancient pillars of the faith will be made One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

A clue as to the hope that Christ had in his Church is its visibility throughout the earth. Can one find, through covert inquisitiveness if required, a place to attend mass in virtually every nation on earth? Is it growing, or is it essentially contained? In my mind, that is the true Church which fulfills Christ’s exhortation to “make disciples of every nation”. Opinions vary, of course.
 
WetCatechumen said:
…

The Assyrians - well, I think it’s harder to claim them - denying Mary as Theotokos is pretty bad, unless they only meant we shouldn’t call her that, even if it’s true.

…
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From the 1994 COMMON CHRISTOLOGICAL DECLARATION BETWEEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST
The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour”. In the light of this same faith the Catholic tradition addresses the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of God” and also as “the Mother of Christ”. We both recognize the legitimacy and rightness of these expressions of the same faith and we both respect the preference of each Church in her liturgical life and piety.
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vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_11111994_assyrian-church_en.html
 
I think from the Catholic standpoint, the Catholicity of the others is lacking in as much as they lack constituent elements of the Church of Christ (in the case of the EO, the primacy).

In the EO you also have situations where autocephalous Church A recognizes autocephalous Churches B and C, but B only recognizes A, but not C. So you have C=A=B≠C. That seems to harm the internal consistency somewhat.
 
Genesis315 said:
I think from the Catholic standpoint, the Catholicity of the others is lacking in as much as they lack constituent elements of the Church of Christ (in the case of the EO, the primacy).

In the EO you also have situations where autocephalous Church A recognizes autocephalous Churches B and C, but B only recognizes A, but not C. So you have C=A=B≠C. That seems to harm the internal consistency somewhat.
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The terminology used by Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, that I have seen, is that they are in communion with one another (sharing the same faith and mysteries) but they are sometimes non-canonical. This is the situation that exists between the Moscow Patriachate and the Ecumenical Patriachate, and that impacts the areas of Estonia, and Ukraine, and Orthodox in the United States.
 
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