The 4 Marks of the Church - The Mark of 1

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We know that the One True Church of Jesus Christ has Four Marks that distinguish it from all other religions. ONE - HOLY - CATHOLIC (universal) APOSTOLIC

The mark of ONE implies unity.

So my fellow Catholics - My question is this - Why is there so much disunity today? We are witnesses to it in this forum on a daily basis.

My question isnt submitted to start an argument as to why it is that way or what has made it that way or which belief system is better than the other belief system. No - I submit it for an entirely different reason.

And that is - What can we do today - to make it a reality? To make it tangible. To make it be a mark , evident to all non Catholics?

And no - I dont want an EF Vs OF conversation. I am looking for tangible Ideas that will work to Unite Catholics - instead of the numerous posts that all seem to seek to divide us further.

Any Ideas?
 
Robert_Burns said:
We know that the One True Church of Jesus Christ has Four Marks that distinguish it from all other religions. ONE - HOLY - CATHOLIC (universal) APOSTOLIC

The mark of ONE implies unity.

So my fellow Catholics - My question is this - Why is there so much disunity today? We are witnesses to it in this forum on a daily basis.

My question isnt submitted to start an argument as to why it is that way or what has made it that way or which belief system is better than the other belief system. No - I submit it for an entirely different reason.

And that is - What can we do today - to make it a reality? To make it tangible. To make it be a mark , evident to all non Catholics?

And no - I dont want an EF Vs OF conversation. I am looking for tangible Ideas that will work to Unite Catholics - instead of the numerous posts that all seem to seek to divide us further.

Any Ideas?
Click to expand...
Faith, hope and charity. The greatest of which is charity.
 
Yes, Post-Vatican II, dissent, experimentation, irreverence and poor catechesis were allowed to reign from the top down in dioceses, parishes and schools.

Many concerned Catholics looked around and said, “What happened? How can this be our Church? This is diabolical!” They took responsible action and began forming what JPII called, “Little Churches” in their homes and began demanding answers, gathering funds to lobby at the Vatican for good reform. They organized prayer groups, solid Catholic intellectual groups, like Credo and Women For Faith and Family, etc…

On the other hand. you had(have)radical individuals and groups (particularly left wing religious) who (have publicly stated) they are attempting to build a parallel church of their own, using the body of the ‘old church’ to build up the new one in their own image. For 30 years, the left ignored the traditionalists and dismissed them as fringe wackos. Over the last 10 years or so, they suddenly looked around and said, “Whoa! Wait a minute who are all these people? How are they so well organized and funded? Why is no one listening to us any more?” This has brought a whole new set of divisions to the table.

A third group, what I call the mainstream majority, whose ignorance stems from the poor catechesis, is either apathetic or they’ve decided to pick and choose what they’re going to do and when and how they’re going to do it. No one is going to tell them what to do and they certainly don’t want to be confused with the facts.

You can’t blame the laity or the average work-a-day, know-nothing priest (I don’t understand these priests not knowing Holy Scripture or the basics of Church teaching). The fault lies at the top for allowing it all to go down the way it did. I understand JPII went through The War and was a pope of mercy. It was written of him in the 90s, “As priest and prophet A+, as king, D-.”

Btw, I am not ‘blaming’ Vatican II, rather it’s misapplication.

How can we unite?

I can only speak as someone in the traditionalist camp. We can unite on our side by being charitable when we need to interact with radicals (left OR right) and by praying for them. We can invite them to join us for Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, since Mass and most other devotions seem to cause controversy. At this point, I think we’re beyond 'dialogue."
 
Robert_Burns said:
We know that the One True Church of Jesus Christ has Four Marks that distinguish it from all other religions. ONE - HOLY - CATHOLIC (universal) APOSTOLIC

The mark of ONE implies unity.

So my fellow Catholics - My question is this - Why is there so much disunity today? We are witnesses to it in this forum on a daily basis.

My question isnt submitted to start an argument as to why it is that way or what has made it that way or which belief system is better than the other belief system. No - I submit it for an entirely different reason.

And that is - What can we do today - to make it a reality? To make it tangible. To make it be a mark , evident to all non Catholics?

And no - I dont want an EF Vs OF conversation. I am looking for tangible Ideas that will work to Unite Catholics - instead of the numerous posts that all seem to seek to divide us further.

Any Ideas?
Click to expand...
I guess my question to you is what do you believe “unity” to mean?

I think that much of the “dis-unity” comes from the mind-set that there is always only one way, and that it is my way (whatever side a person happens to be on).

For example- I receive CITH and find it to be a reverent and mystical experience, every time!

However, I know many people who would never think of touching the “Body of Christ” and therefore will only receive OTT.

I do not think any less of them, nor they of me. We are both receiving the graces of the Eucharist, just in different ways, as the Church (at least my little corner of it) allows.

***Neither is right or wrong ***and until we all (Catholics everywhere) realize that the Church does allow for some personal variation in some things, IMHO we will never be ONE!😦
 
I think you’re going to end up with yet another thread of “I’m perfect, so this is what’s wrong with YOU” – of which there are way too many on this Forum, but you pose an interesting question. I’ve thought a lot recently about those same four signs of a true Church – and the “One” sign really does seem to be missing.

I was reared Catholic before Vat. II – but during the time of Vat. II I lived in an area of California where there happened to be a great Bishop and a whole new litter of young, very well-educated, talented and holy priests who introduced the new Liturgy with good explanations and prayerful enthusiasm. They also educated parishioners on the theology behind the changes and kept us abreast of the new directions the Spirit was guiding the Church at that time.

I was honestly flabbergasted when I found this Forum and realized the deep, serious and long-standing rift between the “traditionalists” and everyone else, particularly the “liberal/progressive/dissenting/cafeteria” factions. I had NO idea there were still Catholics who resented every modification made since Vat II – and who blame it for everything that’s wrong with contemporary American and Catholic culture. I knew that some people had had a hard time with the changes, but (silly me) I thought maybe that would have passed in the last 45 years – which is almost two generations.

I’ve found this situation very disturbing on so many levels – yet, it reflects the deep divisions we have all across the secular culture, particularly the political landscape. Ultra-conservative vs conservative vs liberal vs ultra-liberal vs everyone who doesn’t think as “I DO.”

I think the increasing polarity between conservative and centrist/liberal is what’s keeping us from truly being “one” – and I honestly don’t see a way to resolve that. It is so virulent and mean-spirited on both sides, with each wed to his/her own position – and Jesus’ message and love get lost in the rhetoric and attitudes. Sadly, the philosophies of each side seem to be growing further apart, rather than closer. It may be that we are united with our Orthodox and Protestant brothers and sisters before these two militant factions are united. I certainly don’t see anyone in any kind of authority, Rome included, who are trying to mend the breach.

Speaking personally, there’s nothing I can think of that would make me cleave to the conservative positions – and I’m sure (since I’m in the minority on this Forum) there are conservatives who will never understand or tolerate the more liberal side.

Note: When I say “liberal” I don’t mean supporting abortion, gay marriage, etc. I’m a faithful Catholic (attend daily Mass) who simply prefers living in the 21st century, not the 19th. No offense meant. There are practices I’d love to see changed, but they won’t happen for another 300 years.

Okay, I’m tied to the post – flog away.
 
HCC said:
Yes, Post-Vatican II, dissent, experimentation, irreverence and poor catechesis were allowed to reign from the top down in dioceses, parishes and schools.

Many concerned Catholics looked around and said, “What happened? How can this be our Church? This is diabolical!” They took responsible action and began forming what JPII called, “Little Churches” in their homes and began demanding answers, gathering funds to lobby at the Vatican for good reform. They organized prayer groups, solid Catholic intellectual groups, like Credo and Women For Faith and Family, etc…

On the other hand. you had(have)radical individuals and groups (particularly left wing religious) who (have publicly stated) they are attempting to build a parallel church of their own, using the body of the ‘old church’ to build up the new one in their own image. For 30 years, the left ignored the traditionalists and dismissed them as fringe wackos. Over the last 10 years or so, they suddenly looked around and said, “Whoa! Wait a minute who are all these people? How are they so well organized and funded? Why is no one listening to us any more?” This has brought a whole new set of divisions to the table.

A third group, what I call the mainstream majority, whose ignorance stems from the poor catechesis, is either apathetic or they’ve decided to pick and choose what they’re going to do and when and how they’re going to do it. No one is going to tell them what to do and they certainly don’t want to be confused with the facts.

You can’t blame the laity or the average work-a-day, know-nothing priest (I don’t understand these priests not knowing Holy Scripture or the basics of Church teaching). The fault lies at the top for allowing it all to go down the way it did. I understand JPII went through The War and was a pope of mercy. It was written of him in the 90s, “As priest and prophet A+, as king, D-.”

Btw, I am not ‘blaming’ Vatican II, rather it’s misapplication.

How can we unite?

I can only speak as someone in the traditionalist camp. We can unite on our side by being charitable when we need to interact with radicals (left OR right) and by praying for them. We can invite them to join us for Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, since Mass and most other devotions seem to cause controversy. At this point, I think we’re beyond 'dialogue."
Click to expand...
Excellent Post. Thanks for the insight.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
I guess my question to you is what do you believe “unity” to mean?

I think that much of the “dis-unity” comes from the mind-set that there is always only one way, and that it is my way (whatever side a person happens to be on).

For example- I receive CITH and find it to be a reverent and mystical experience, every time!

However, I know many people who would never think of touching the “Body of Christ” and therefore will only receive OTT.

I do not think any less of them, nor they of me. We are both receiving the graces of the Eucharist, just in different ways, as the Church (at least my little corner of it) allows.

***Neither is right or wrong ***and until we all (Catholics everywhere) realize that the Church does allow for some personal variation in some things, IMHO we will never be ONE!😦
Click to expand...
Well , By Unity , I mean as the term implies. Does having a constantly evolving methodology and constant argumentation that accompanies it unify or divide? I tend to believe it divides.
 
challam2010 said:
I think you’re going to end up with yet another thread of “I’m perfect, so this is what’s wrong with YOU” – of which there are way too many on this Forum, but you pose an interesting question. I’ve thought a lot recently about those same four signs of a true Church – and the “One” sign really does seem to be missing.

I was reared Catholic before Vat. II – but during the time of Vat. II I lived in an area of California where there happened to be a great Bishop and a whole new litter of young, very well-educated, talented and holy priests who introduced the new Liturgy with good explanations and prayerful enthusiasm. They also educated parishioners on the theology behind the changes and kept us abreast of the new directions the Spirit was guiding the Church at that time.

I was honestly flabbergasted when I found this Forum and realized the deep, serious and long-standing rift between the “traditionalists” and everyone else, particularly the “liberal/progressive/dissenting/cafeteria” factions. I had NO idea there were still Catholics who resented every modification made since Vat II – and who blame it for everything that’s wrong with contemporary American and Catholic culture. I knew that some people had had a hard time with the changes, but (silly me) I thought maybe that would have passed in the last 45 years – which is almost two generations.

I’ve found this situation very disturbing on so many levels – yet, it reflects the deep divisions we have all across the secular culture, particularly the political landscape. Ultra-conservative vs conservative vs liberal vs ultra-liberal vs everyone who doesn’t think as “I DO.”

I think the increasing polarity between conservative and centrist/liberal is what’s keeping us from truly being “one” – and I honestly don’t see a way to resolve that. It is so virulent and mean-spirited on both sides, with each wed to his/her own position – and Jesus’ message and love get lost in the rhetoric and attitudes. Sadly, the philosophies of each side seem to be growing further apart, rather than closer. It may be that we are united with our Orthodox and Protestant brothers and sisters before these two militant factions are united. I certainly don’t see anyone in any kind of authority, Rome included, who are trying to mend the breach.

Speaking personally, there’s nothing I can think of that would make me cleave to the conservative positions – and I’m sure (since I’m in the minority on this Forum) there are conservatives who will never understand or tolerate the more liberal side.

Note: When I say “liberal” I don’t mean supporting abortion, gay marriage, etc. I’m a faithful Catholic (attend daily Mass) who simply prefers living in the 21st century, not the 19th. No offense meant. There are practices I’d love to see changed, but they won’t happen for another 300 years.

Okay, I’m tied to the post – flog away.
Click to expand...
Another Excellent post - thank you for it.
 
HCC said:
Yes, Post-Vatican II, dissent, experimentation, irreverence and poor catechesis were allowed to reign from the top down in dioceses, parishes and schools.

Many concerned Catholics looked around and said, “What happened? How can this be our Church? This is diabolical!” They took responsible action and began forming what JPII called, “Little Churches” in their homes and began demanding answers, gathering funds to lobby at the Vatican for good reform. They organized prayer groups, solid Catholic intellectual groups, like Credo and Women For Faith and Family, etc…

On the other hand. you had(have)radical individuals and groups (particularly left wing religious) who (have publicly stated) they are attempting to build a parallel church of their own, using the body of the ‘old church’ to build up the new one in their own image. For 30 years, the left ignored the traditionalists and dismissed them as fringe wackos. Over the last 10 years or so, they suddenly looked around and said, “Whoa! Wait a minute who are all these people? How are they so well organized and funded? Why is no one listening to us any more?” This has brought a whole new set of divisions to the table.

A third group, what I call the mainstream majority, whose ignorance stems from the poor catechesis, is either apathetic or they’ve decided to pick and choose what they’re going to do and when and how they’re going to do it. No one is going to tell them what to do and they certainly don’t want to be confused with the facts.

You can’t blame the laity or the average work-a-day, know-nothing priest (I don’t understand these priests not knowing Holy Scripture or the basics of Church teaching). The fault lies at the top for allowing it all to go down the way it did. I understand JPII went through The War and was a pope of mercy. It was written of him in the 90s, “As priest and prophet A+, as king, D-.”

Btw, I am not ‘blaming’ Vatican II, rather it’s misapplication.

How can we unite?

I can only speak as someone in the traditionalist camp. We can unite on our side by being charitable when we need to interact with radicals (left OR right) and by praying for them. We can invite them to join us for Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, since Mass and most other devotions seem to cause controversy. At this point, I think we’re beyond 'dialogue."
Click to expand...
👍👍 very good. this summons up the whole problem. if they could just accept us.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
I guess my question to you is what do you believe “unity” to mean?

I think that much of the “dis-unity” comes from the mind-set that there is always only one way, and that it is my way (whatever side a person happens to be on).

For example- I receive CITH and find it to be a reverent and mystical experience, every time!(
Click to expand...
Mother Teresa on CITH:

“Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive Communion in the hand.”😦
 
At this point, I think we’re beyond 'dialogue."
Click to expand...
I agree. Which is why i rarely post here. Pointless and useless. Constant rehashing of the same old, same old. No “side” wins; just embitters each all the more.
 
HCC said:
I will be attending Fr Rutler’s Mass this Sunday and will make a point of asking him.
Click to expand...
That’d be solid. I know she was quoted saying that the norm is in the hand, but her Order would receive OTT.

(ducks out of thread before it gets further derailed)
 
HCC said:
I will be attending Fr Rutler’s Mass this Sunday and will make a point of asking him.
Click to expand...
If you go here to the site for Mother Teresa’s cause, you will find that this has been debunked by the Missionaries of Charity.
 
Melchior said:
That’d be solid. I know she was quoted saying that the norm is in the hand, but her Order would receive OTT.

(ducks out of thread before it gets further derailed)
Click to expand...
OK , so along those lines of thought - and without passing Judgement on which is better and which is worse - does anyone think that the Pope mandating COTT regardless of EF or OF would be Unifying? or Divisive?
 
wisdomseeker said:
👍👍 very good. this summons up the whole problem. if they could just accept us.
Click to expand...
I don’t mean to be petty or argumentative here, but I honestly see this absolutely the opposite. I think the traditionalists are the ones who have the hardest time “accepting” the other groups in the Church. Even on CAF you see far more negative threads denigrating the OF liturgies and more liberal attitudes. Every time I see the words “liberal,” “progressive,” or “cafeteria Catholics” I can almost hear the hiss that accompanies them.

I wouldn’t dream of lobbying against or preventing in any way any traditional liturgical practice or devotion – as long as the majority of the liturgical reforms from Vat II are left in place. Neither would I ever argue against your theology as it’s no different from mine. Those very liberal groups who do lobby for more progressive changes do so not out of willful disobedience but in answer to urgings from their consciences and after much discernment. In that sense you may find them railing against the conservative establishment, but it rarely gets personal – as do the judgments and comments here.

As the old saying goes, there is much more that unites the left with the right than divides us – I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead us to unity and peace.
 
Those very liberal groups who do lobby for more progressive changes do so not out of willful disobedience but in answer to urgings from their consciences and after much discernment.
Click to expand...
How did you come by this knowledge?
 
Robert_Burns said:
OK , so along those lines of thought - and without passing Judgement on which is better and which is worse - does anyone think that the Pope mandating COTT regardless of EF or OF would be Unifying? or Divisive?
Click to expand...
OK , so along those lines of thought - and without passing Judgement on which is better and which is worse - does anyone think that the Pope mandating COTH regardless of EF or OF would be Unifying? or Divisive?
 
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