The 4 Marks of the Church - The Mark of 1

[Robert_Burns]

I don’t mean to be petty or argumentative here, but I honestly see this absolutely the opposite. I think the traditionalists are the ones who have the hardest time “accepting” the other groups in the Church. Even on CAF you see far more negative threads denigrating the OF liturgies and more liberal attitudes. Every time I see the words “liberal,” “progressive,” or “cafeteria Catholics” I can almost hear the hiss that accompanies them.

I wouldn’t dream of lobbying against or preventing in any way any traditional liturgical practice or devotion – as long as the majority of the liturgical reforms from Vat II are left in place. Neither would I ever argue against your theology as it’s no different from mine. Those very liberal groups who do lobby for more progressive changes do so not out of willful disobedience but in answer to urgings from their consciences and after much discernment. In that sense you may find them railing against the conservative establishment, but it rarely gets personal – as do the judgments and comments here.

As the old saying goes, there is much more that unites the left with the right than divides us – I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead us to unity and peace.

Well - when I hear the term “Cafeteria Catholic” it is by no means confined to Traditional Catholics. I know plenty of Catholics who attend the OF who likewise completely disagree with Cafeteria Catholics who openly defy Church teachings in regards to things like women ordination or artificial birth control or other such things. I dont think its strictly a problem with Traditional Catholics. In fact - I dont think it matters if someone goes to the EF or OF in regard to many of these things.

 

[HCC]

I don’t mean to be petty or argumentative here, but I honestly see this absolutely the opposite. I think the traditionalists are the ones who have the hardest time “accepting” the other groups in the Church. Even on CAF you see far more negative threads denigrating the OF liturgies and more liberal attitudes. Every time I see the words “liberal,” “progressive,” or “cafeteria Catholics” I can almost hear the hiss that accompanies them.

I wouldn’t dream of lobbying against or preventing in any way any traditional liturgical practice or devotion – as long as the majority of the liturgical reforms from Vat II are left in place. Neither would I ever argue against your theology as it’s no different from mine. Those very liberal groups who do lobby for more progressive changes do so not out of willful disobedience but in answer to urgings from their consciences and after much discernment. In that sense you may find them railing against the conservative establishment, but it rarely gets personal – as do the judgments and comments here.

As the old saying goes, there is much more that unites the left with the right than divides us – I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead us to unity and peace.

All we want is the Faith of our Fathers & Mothers. We are not going to stand by idly while various interest groups, Call to Action, We Are Church, LCWR and so many others try to reshape “church” into their likeness. Nope. Sorry, if that is your definition of unity…

 

[Robert_Burns]

OK , so along those lines of thought - and without passing Judgement on which is better and which is worse - does anyone think that the Pope mandating COTH regardless of EF or OF would be Unifying? or Divisive?

I think Divisive. And I think COTT is unifying.

 

[Melchior_1]

I think Divisive. And I think COTT is unifying.

And some would think the opposite; they’d say COTH would unify and COTT would be divisive.

Personally, if people on both sides would just show some respect to each others perfectly valid practices then THAT would be unifying.

I receive COTT, I know people who receive COTH. We respect each others practices and wouldn’t you know, we get along

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Mother Teresa on CITH:

“Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive Communion in the hand.”

A perfect example of what I was saying in post# 5.
Because this in not HCC’'s way, it is the wrong way.
Sorry, don’t think so!!

 

[ProVobis]

OK , so along those lines of thought - and without passing Judgement on which is better and which is worse - does anyone think that the Pope mandating COTH regardless of EF or OF would be Unifying?

Probably not but a little Latin (Agnus Dei, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, anything) in all Masses could unite those across most cultures. A Mass that is at least partly familiar to everyone (language, music, vestments, etc.) goes a long way.

 

[HCC]

I was wrong for posting that comment here re: Mother Teresa. This is an interesting thread, let’s try to keep it focused on the OP’s question.

UNITY. How did we lose it and how can we fix it?

Prayer, Example, Charity, Faith.
Clearer teaching and better implementation of that teaching. Cracking down on abuse and dissenters.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I was wrong for posting that comment here re: Mother Teresa. This is an interesting thread, let’s try to keep it focused on the OP’s question.

UNITY. How did we lose it and how can we fix it?

Prayer, Example, Charity, Faith.
Clearer teaching and better implementation of that teaching. Cracking down on abuse and dissenters.

Agreed. Its not an issue of what everyone feels is right or wrong - but rather what is unifying or will lead to greater unity.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

We know that the One True Church of Jesus Christ has Four Marks that distinguish it from all other religions. ONE - HOLY - CATHOLIC (universal) APOSTOLIC

The mark of ONE implies unity.

So my fellow Catholics - My question is this - Why is there so much disunity today? We are witnesses to it in this forum on a daily basis.

My question isnt submitted to start an argument as to why it is that way or what has made it that way or which belief system is better than the other belief system. No - I submit it for an entirely different reason.

And that is - What can we do today - to make it a reality? To make it tangible. To make it be a mark , evident to all non Catholics?

And no - I dont want an EF Vs OF conversation. I am looking for tangible Ideas that will work to Unite Catholics - instead of the numerous posts that all seem to seek to divide us further.

Any Ideas?

I guess my question to you is what do you believe “unity” to mean?

I think that much of the “dis-unity” comes from the mind-set that there is always only one way, and that it is my way (whatever side a person happens to be on).

For example- I receive CITH and find it to be a reverent and mystical experience, every time!

However, I know many people who would never think of touching the “Body of Christ” and therefore will only receive OTT.

I do not think any less of them, nor they of me. We are both receiving the graces of the Eucharist, just in different ways, as the Church (at least my little corner of it) allows.

***Neither is right or wrong ***and until we all (Catholics everywhere) realize that the Church does allow for some personal variation in some things, IMHO we will never be ONE!

Let me see if I understand this correctly,

Mr. Burns, you asked the question "why aren’t we “ONE”, and what happened to get us this way and how can we fix it?

In post #5, I ask how you define unity. There are 6 different definitions, all that carry very different connotations.

I then bring up something that causes great divide in our Chruch and ask why we can’t just agree to disagree matters of "discipline" and I, am meet with this-

*Mother Teresa on CITH:

“Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive Communion in the hand.”*

Is this unifying?

My definition of “unity” is #2- “a condition of harmony”.

What is yours?

In peace,
One of the women

 

[palmas855]

We know that the One True Church of Jesus Christ has Four Marks that distinguish it from all other religions. ONE - HOLY - CATHOLIC (universal) APOSTOLIC

The mark of ONE implies unity.

So my fellow Catholics - My question is this - Why is there so much disunity today? We are witnesses to it in this forum on a daily basis.

My question isnt submitted to start an argument as to why it is that way or what has made it that way or which belief system is better than the other belief system. No - I submit it for an entirely different reason.

And that is - What can we do today - to make it a reality? To make it tangible. To make it be a mark , evident to all non Catholics?

And no - I dont want an EF Vs OF conversation. I am looking for tangible Ideas that will work to Unite Catholics - instead of the numerous posts that all seem to seek to divide us further.

Any Ideas?

Learn from history. That would be the best idea. The Church almost tore itself apart in the early years due to misinterpretations, heresies and outright fraud. The Roman Church established a measure of control on the situation which existed pretty much intact until the Great Schism and then the Protestant Reformation. The same errors that were commited in those early years as well as the same heresies that flourished are still here, masquerading as other things using new names and methods, but still there.ccomplishing the same thing. Creating disunity in the Body of Christ. Sowing the seeds of discontent so that those false teachers can profit. Damning souls to Hell through convincing lies and outright fraud. Don’t be fooled my friend, this has been a problem since the earliest days of the Church. The inevitable onset of error and erroneous teaching. As Peter said in 2 Peter

**But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their lascivious doings; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of.
**

LEARN FROM HISTORY

 

[GloriousOrder]

How realistic is it to assume Unam Sanctam, Catholicam et Apostolicam Ecclesiam? Apparently, the term is an invention from the Patristic age, and not necessarily Biblical or even Apostolic. To me, it appears to be a rather unrealistic goal, since we are all sinful and prone to follow our individual ego. Even small soup-kitchens are riven by each person’s opinions and “suggestions” (which become dictatorial over time) expressed at general chapters. The famous saying is: “We all want Unity - on our terms!”.

Why should we even assume that it’s possible to achieve the Unam? Why is that even a mark of the Church? Differences of opinion exist after the Fall, as sad as it is…

 

[Robert_Burns]

How realistic is it to assume Unam Sanctam, Catholicam et Apostolicam Ecclesiam? Apparently, the term is an invention from the Patristic age, and not necessarily Biblical or even Apostolic. To me, it appears to be a rather unrealistic goal, since we are all sinful and prone to follow our individual ego. Even small soup-kitchens are riven by each person’s opinions and “suggestions” (which become dictatorial over time) expressed at general chapters. The famous saying is: “We all want Unity - on our terms!”.

Why should we even assume that it’s possible to achieve the Unam? Why is that even a mark of the Church? Differences of opinion exist after the Fall, as sad as it is…

Its dogmatic. See the Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381) which defined it De Fide.

 

[Lormar]

Learn from history. That would be the best idea. The Church almost tore itself apart in the early years due to misinterpretations, heresies and outright fraud. The Roman Church established a measure of control on the situation which existed pretty much intact until the Great Schism and then the Protestant Reformation. The same errors that were commited in those early years as well as the same heresies that flourished are still here, masquerading as other things using new names and methods, but still there.ccomplishing the same thing. Creating disunity in the Body of Christ. Sowing the seeds of discontent so that those false teachers can profit. Damning souls to Hell through convincing lies and outright fraud. Don’t be fooled my friend, this has been a problem since the earliest days of the Church. The inevitable onset of error and erroneous teaching. As Peter said in 2 Peter

**But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their lascivious doings; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of.
**

LEARN FROM HISTORY

Super! Let’s continue to rip one another to shreds then…carry on!!! :clapping::clapping:

 

[CradleCath]

Note: When I say “liberal” I don’t mean supporting abortion, gay marriage, etc. I’m a faithful Catholic (attend daily Mass) who simply prefers living in the 21st century, not the 19th. No offense meant. There are practices I’d love to see changed, but they won’t happen for another 300 years.

Okay, I’m tied to the post – flog away.

Challam, I don’t intend to “flog”.
I’m just wondering if you realize that the sentence that I’ve highlighted could be offensive to those who LOVE so much about the 21st century…the technology, the knowledge that is at our fingertips now, the automatic dishwasher, etc., but still love the Mass codified at Trent…especially the penitential prayers & the Sacred Silence??

Because, though this is a small thing, if you don’t see how this could hurt the attempt to unify the Church…I don’t see much hope in that happening.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Let me see if I understand this correctly,

Mr. Burns, you asked the question "why aren’t we “ONE”, and what happened to get us this way and how can we fix it?

In post #5, I ask how you define unity. There are 6 different definitions, all that carry very different connotations.

I then bring up something that causes great divide in our Chruch and ask why we can’t just agree to disagree matters of "discipline" and I, am meet with this-

*Mother Teresa on CITH:

“Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive Communion in the hand.”*

Is this unifying?

My definition of “unity” is #2- “a condition of harmony”.

What is yours?

In peace,
One of the women

I posed the question. The question was not posed to say what is or is not right or wrong. It was posed in the format as to what will unify. Do you think Harmony is Unity? So if we have " Harmonious Bhuddists " are they united to the Body of Christ? Obviously not. But if you mean Harmonious in Belief as the Eastern Rites for example are in Harmony with the Western Rites although their methodology differs then I would agree. But I see little harmony in the Western Church right now. I see a pervasive attitude of we are right and you are wrong. Agree or disagree? As for the quote by Mother Theresa - I didnt contribute that , nor have I commented on it.

 

[CradleCath]

OK , so along those lines of thought - and without passing Judgement on which is better and which is worse - does anyone think that the Pope mandating COTT regardless of EF or OF would be Unifying? or Divisive?

I think that it would unite us, IF it’s promoted the right way. The Bishops & the parish priests are the key.

 

[CradleCath]

I posed the question. The question was not posed to say what is or is not right or wrong. It was posed in the format as to what will unify. Do you think Harmony is Unity? So if we have " Harmonious Bhuddists " are they united to the Body of Christ? Obviously not. But if you mean Harmonious in Belief as the Eastern Rites for example are in Harmony with the Western Rites although their methodology differs then I would agree. But I see little harmony in the Western Church right now. I see a pervasive attitude of we are right and you are wrong. Agree or disagree? As for the quote by Mother Theresa - I didnt contribute that , nor have I commented on it.

Robert, I think that the best thing we can all do to unify…is to quit all this “I prefer & You prefer” & start asking ourselves, which do we believe that GOD prefers.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I think that it would unite us, IF it’s promoted the right way. The Bishops & the parish priests are the key.

I agree.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Robert, I think that the best thing we can all do to unify…is to quit all this “I prefer & You prefer” & start asking ourselves, which do we believe that GOD prefers.

Another great point. Seek the will of GOD. I like it.

 

[challam2010]

Challam, I don’t intend to “flog”.
I’m just wondering if you realize that the sentence that I’ve highlighted could be offensive to those who LOVE so much about the 21st century…the technology, the knowledge that is at our fingertips now, the automatic dishwasher, etc., but still love the Mass codified at Trent…especially the penitential prayers & the Sacred Silence??

Because, though this is a small thing, if you don’t see how this could hurt the attempt to unify the Church…I don’t see much hope in that happening.

Cradle…
I must not have made my intent clear, and I apologize if that’s so.

I’m perfectly content for the Latin Mass to be celebrated whenever and wherever it’s desired – as long as the OF Mass continues to be available to those of us who also love it.

As it happens, I grew up with the Latin Mass and agree that it holds an aura of sanctity that the OF does not, but I also appreciate all of the elements that have been changed/updated in the liturgy and other aspects of Catholic life since Vat II.

I would not want to return to the legalistic, counter-reformation stance that prevailed in the Church before the Council. Even though I went through 16 years of Catholic education (including the novitiate in a teaching order of nuns), I didn’t fully comprehend or experience God’s LOVE until the changes were made. I’d be very distressed if those attitudes were brought back.

That may be beside the fact, though. I suspect that the “One” element (One, Holy, catholic and Apostolic) has everything to do with theology and very little to do with ritual.

You have only to think of the Eastern Catholics to realize how liturgies differ from one another, and from ours – but dogma remains the same,.and in that sense we are One. No one has suggested that there be any movement to make the EasternWestern liturgies the same – but the OF Mass does not receive the same respect or honor by traditionalists, even though it was suggested, approved and implemented by Rome.

I think the conservative/centrist/liberal disagreements are what divide us far more seriously than the type of liturgy we each prefer, and it’s that quandry I see little hope for. Those groups don’t seem to be able to get together in any other aspect of life, but it is worrisome to find the same rifts in a Church that calls itself “One.”

I hope this clears up my original post. God bless you.