It is NOT simply about OF vs EF. There are groups of people who seriously want to bring down the Church’s moral and doctrinal teachings. They state these things publicly. Then one has to ask what allowed this crisis and then we’re back where we started.
I think there is some confusion on what “one” means. St. Paul emphasized that just as there is one Lord and One God, so there is “one faith, one baptism”. Repeatedly he describes the church as “one body” identified with the integrity and uniqueness of Jesus’ own body. Paul acknowledges that Christians are many and diverse, but he insists on the Church’s unity, and he casts that unity in sacramental terms. “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…and we were made to drink of one spirit”
Where did you get that from?
…and of one mind and belief. that is the unity. we must believe in the same thing since none of the Apostles tought nothing different from the other.
Agreed - but He likewise admonishes us to act the part as well in Romans 15 Vs 1-7
I guess my point is that the “church” is just not some mystical “body”, or some figurative reality. That’s not what St. Paul speaks of. The body is the visible part of a being endowed with a soul. For a metaphor so dominate in his writings, don’t we think that he would have used the words “soul” of Christ had he meant it in a spiritual way?
Great post and I can relate - I have had both knees surgically repaired twice each. The hardest part is getting the range of motion back. Its a lot of work. As to your post - I think often times we overlook the fact that many non Catholics are on “their journey” so what they hold true today may not be what they hold to be true tomorrow. I think the question is - when exactly do they become part of the Body of Christ - Certainly not by adhereance to any defined Heresy. So I think the Body of Christ is forever in Flux. We as Catholics - should we fall into a habit of Unrepentant Mortal Sin - would we too exclude ourselves from the Body of Christ until such time that we repent?I guess my point is that the “church” is just not some mystical “body”, or some figurative reality. That’s not what St. Paul speaks of. The body is the visible part of a being endowed with a soul. For a metaphor so dominate in his writings, don’t we think that he would have used the words “soul” of Christ had he meant it in a spiritual way?
If “body” has any meaning whatsoever as a metaphor, it must indicate a visible unity. What other Christian body could be a candidate for the “one” church. Other christian “bodies” claim scriture alone, or have multiplied denominations into the tens of thousands, those Christian bodies differ from one another on such key matters such as atonement, the proper age for baptism, the morality of abortion, function of the clergy, even the day of the week on which to worship. Denominations as large as Lutherans and Baptists disagree on the sacraments; not so in the catholic church. I believe this is the unity that Jesus and St. paul speak of.
The church seen in the Acts of the Apostles could be a snapshot of the church at any time in history.That’s not to say that the church has no grumblers, or dissenters or sinners. But the church remains one despite the charecters we meet in those same pages of the Acts of the Apostles, Look at Ananias in Acts 5 or Simon the magician in chapter 8 . So here it comes…It’s a mystery, St. Paul also applies that term to the church.here’s my best anaology…I just had knee surgery, but just because my knee needed healing doesn’t mean that it wasn’t still part of my body, it needed the “surgeon” to look inside to correct what was wrong with it so it fell in line with the rest of the “body”. Thank God for our “surgeon” Jesus Christ who looks inside the parts of the body and heals what needs to be healed. We only need to look with the eyes of faith. Hope I didn’t ramble too much…pain meds you know
Coincidentally, I heard last night on Catholic radio that we are “One in the Spirit as the Trinity are One.”
Not only non-catholics are on that journey, but “catholics” as well, I was one of them. But to answer your question, when they accept the teachings of Christ, which would be Holy mother church, when they let go of self , when they Abide in Christ so that He may Abide in Him. When they Eat the flesh of the Son of Man and Drink His most Precious Blood. And if we fall into unrepentent mortal sin we have now seperated ourselves from the vine, WE exclude ourselves from the Body of Christ, His church, until such a time as we repent. There’s another word that catholics don’t get the gist of…repentent…And yet Christ in His most merciful ways calls to the most hardened sinners and draws them to Himself. Now that’s a mystery, one I’m glad I have been apart of. Wanna talk about the other three marks of the One true Church?
Amen to that!!
you are right. except when certain leaders are advocating for things against the teachings of the Church. but we can know when this happens. let’s take for example those who are advocating for liberation theology. are we to follow their lead?
Well said… And sure - you can talk about the other three as well.
Thanks for that. I agree.
Good point. And thats a huge problem in the Church because like it or not - we do have some Catholics in good standing openly advocating positions that deviate from the Official Teachings of the Church. I think we all can cite examples. So how can these activities ever lead to Unity?
it cant. because their followers are following what is contrary to teh Church and they will develop aversion to what the Church teaches and they wont believe you. but we can still love them and shut up about it.
On the other hand, it is quite possible that these contemporary thinkers and theologians are being led by the Spirit to new insights, new conclusions, new emphases, new directions that will, in God’s own time, become “the teachings of the Church.”
I think to a certain extent that is true in regards to unexplored areas of our Faith. What does trouble me , however , lies in things that completely contradict the Faith as already suffficiently defined. I refer to things that cannot be considered “new insights” but even blatent Heresy in some cases. So where is the line drawn?
Sorry guys, I think a bit too simplistically. Haha.You brring up great points. But I think that in the final analysis - remaining completely faithful to GOD in the commandments and precepts of the Church even if your local Priest or Bishop says or does something unorthodox. We know that the Priests can Forgive or Bind on Earth - but what they cannot do is bind against that for which there is no Law , as St Paul stated in regards to Galatians 5 :16 - 26. So we always can please GOD so long as we do as St Paul instructs. Ultimately the Clergy is there to serve GOD just as we are. In dealing with one another - the will of GOD is served if we understand the purpose GOD gave us the Clergy to begin with. And as you stated - the Clergy will not be allowed to deviate from the will of GOD for long. But if one or two do - We know that we dont have to obey in matters contrary to the faith. There is no law that binds us to obey outside the moral precepts of the Church.What strikes me here is that I’ve seen much faith that God could and does preserve His written word through time but apparently He cannot protect His Church?
I think what’s needed is faith. Prayer and faith.
I’m reminded of something I read while I was studying the line of Popes from the Apostles to now. There was this one pope (I apologize, but I forget his name) who was leaning towards being more open to females being ordained. His was one of the shorter stays in office. He died within a year (or so?) of being elected, if I remember correctly.
Anyway, as I was reading I just found myself thinking; God is in control. He won’t let ANYONE change doctrine in a way that He does not approve.
But I don’t think you guys are referring to trouble that high up. You’re probably referring to trouble more close to home. As in a Priest or Bishop who is teaching something contrary to the Church Doctrine.
We have a method of dealing with that as well, if I recall my scripture properly.
Speak to him privately. If he does not listen bring others from the parish and all of you speak to him privately. If he does not listen speak to the one who is in position above him. If he still does not listen wipe your feet and find a new parish.
Ultimately this is not OUR Church. It was made for us but it does not belong TO us. Those who have been placed in ‘management’ should be respected. Just like in a workplace, if you disrespect the manager the entire workplace becomes toxic. And just like in a workplace if the management is rotten the working atmosphere becomes tense. But this isn’t a ‘job’ you can quit. So instead you have to find ways of working things out without creating an even bigger problem.