The 4 Marks of the Church - The Mark of 1

  • Thread starter Thread starter Robert_Burns
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Cradle –

I respectfully withdraw from debate with you about this. We are obviously on different sides of the fence and I have no need or desire to go back and forth about our different viewpoints.

This particular debate is an example of how we are not “One” in viewpoints, although I hope we are one as part of the Catholic family of God’s holy Church.

God bless you. .
 
And as I think we’ve shown “one” isn’t about personal viewpoints.

the 4 marks of the church - the mark of 2

Holy…I have lots to say about this, but my chicken soup is boiling over on the stove…I’ll be back!!!
 
Oneofthewomen said:
I guess my question to you is what do you believe “unity” to mean?

I think that much of the “dis-unity” comes from the mind-set that there is always only one way, and that it is my way (whatever side a person happens to be on).

For example- I receive CITH and find it to be a reverent and mystical experience, every time!

However, I know many people who would never think of touching the “Body of Christ” and therefore will only receive OTT.

I do not think any less of them, nor they of me. We are both receiving the graces of the Eucharist, just in different ways, as the Church (at least my little corner of it) allows.

***Neither is right or wrong ***and until we all (Catholics everywhere) realize that the Church does allow for some personal variation in some things, IMHO we will never be ONE!😦
Click to expand...
You do realize that communion in the hand was started by protestants who denied the true presence don’t you? Buy yourself some unconcecrated hosts, a pair of black gloves and see how many hosts you can handle with NO particles of the host sticking to the glove. When you are done sit back and think about what happens when people receive communion in the hand. Even the smallest particle of the consecrated host contains the full body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord.

Those who want to say communion in the hand is equal to reception on the tongue with a paton under the chin are fooling themselves. I can 100% assure you that at all Masses where communion in the hand is done that particles of our Lord fall to the floor and get walked on.

Thus one more little reason for the lack of belief in the true presence by so many today.
 
moon1234 said:
You do realize that communion in the hand was started by protestants who denied the true presence don’t you?
Click to expand...
There are several other threads that talk about COTH, but I wanted to mention that several Orders of the Franciscans (which all predate the Reformation) have long received the Eucharist via the hand (I believe it is the norm for them, and has been for centuries). Say what you will about COTH vs COTT, but it does predate the Reformation in some Catholic circles.
 
moon1234 said:
You do realize that communion in the hand was started by protestants who denied the true presence don’t you? Buy yourself some unconcecrated hosts, a pair of black gloves and see how many hosts you can handle with NO particles of the host sticking to the glove. When you are done sit back and think about what happens when people receive communion in the hand. Even the smallest particle of the consecrated host contains the full body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord.

Those who want to say communion in the hand is equal to reception on the tongue with a paton under the chin are fooling themselves. I can 100% assure you that at all Masses where communion in the hand is done that particles of our Lord fall to the floor and get walked on.

Thus one more little reason for the lack of belief in the true presence by so many today.
Click to expand...
So are the differences irreconcillable and are we left to continue to argue and squabble over relatively entrenched positions? And if so - how then can we claim to be One?
 
Is Unity the only mark? I thought the thread was titled 4 marks of the church 🙂
 
MagsM said:
Is Unity the only mark? I thought the thread was titled 4 marks of the church 🙂
Click to expand...
Correct, but the software requires one post text in the OP before a new topic can be introduced. If you care to take time to read the OP, then that will answer your question 🙂
 
Robert_Burns said:
So are the differences irreconcilable and are we left to continue to argue and squabble over relatively entrenched positions? And if so - how then can we claim to be One ?
Click to expand...
We can’t at this time. The closest we can come as individuals is to accept both forms of the Mass, look for the good in the post VII Church, look for the good in the pre VII Church’s worldview, which one would be hard pressed to find anything “bad” in, and pray that abuses in the OF will be addressed. Also, we must pray errors and heresies will subside.

As laity, we are relieving ourselves in the wind trying to sort it all out on internet forums. Those who know nothing but the OF and also know nothing of all the fuss over abuses, will come here and do one of two things. Read a few posts and dismiss us as nut cases, or join in and “take a side”. 🤷

“Not to oppose error is to approve it, and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.” Pope St. Felix III

I’m not sure where that quote is from, or whether he was speaking directly to clergy, but it does show that the Church has been fighting errors in teaching for a long time.

“It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace.” St. Robert Bellarmine

There again is proof. I’m not sure if the Church will ever see the day where all Roman Catholic clergy and laity are on the same page. VII is not the boggie man. Council is a word to describe a gathering, nothing more. This time around, it happened to bear both good and bad fruit. The rottenest of which is the extreme liberal movement that supports women priests and such, and the extreme traditional “vacant chair” mindset. The former appears to be the larger of these two groups.

In summary, the fact that storms come and go, just as Christ told us they would, and have throughout Church history, is where I’ve come to stop short of calling today’s Church the Newchurch as some have styled it.

Unity in Christ’s Holy Name is, and must remain, what we as Catholics should pray for without ceasing. It’s simply the best we can do as laity. And our duty.
 
Robert_Burns said:
We know that the One True Church of Jesus Christ has Four Marks that distinguish it from all other religions. ONE - HOLY - CATHOLIC (universal) APOSTOLIC

The mark of ONE implies unity.

So my fellow Catholics - My question is this - Why is there so much disunity today? We are witnesses to it in this forum on a daily basis.

My question isnt submitted to start an argument as to why it is that way or what has made it that way or which belief system is better than the other belief system. No - I submit it for an entirely different reason.

And that is - What can we do today - to make it a reality? To make it tangible. To make it be a mark , evident to all non Catholics?

And no - I dont want an EF Vs OF conversation. I am looking for tangible Ideas that will work to Unite Catholics - instead of the numerous posts that all seem to seek to divide us further.

Any Ideas?
Click to expand...
Hello Robert,

The church is all these things despite of us…it would be better for us that the church is all these things along with us. But we can only pray for others as we pray also for the souls in purgatory.

The catholic church is the one, true church that Christ intended to exist after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as its first pope - 264 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI.

My contribution to making the catholic church [tangible] to others is by me doing the basic catholic things really, really well.

To have a life of prayer and a life of the spirit.
To participate of the sacraments not just once or twice a year.
To pray the Rosary.
To Love and serve the Lord and be a witness onto others - that is: I’m not just going to be catholic while I’m in church, but also a good catholic at home, at work, when I’m by myself, at burger king, the mall - so that I am the catholic I should be at all times because I fear offending my God.
 
MagsM said:
Is Unity the only mark? I thought the thread was titled 4 marks of the church 🙂
Click to expand...
The church is Holy:
Many people today equate holiness with mere righteousness or good behavior, but they’re not the same thing…
though the two qualities must coexsist in the same soul. That is the literal meaning of “justification” and “sanctification” We are “made righteous” and " made Holy"
The Hebrew word for holiness is kiddushin, literally it means “set apart”- reserved for a special purpose- as the Temple is set apart from other buildings, as the Sabbath is set apart from other days of the week, and as a bride is “set apart” for her groom.

Here’s the part I love the most, that I learned, while studying what these four marks of the church mean…The ancient church venerated the martyrs. We see that in the NT (Heb 11:35-38, Rev : 6:9-11) But the earliest christians venerated another group more than the martyrs. This group comprised those Christians who had renounced normal family life for the sake of Christ and His Kingdom. “white martyrdom” dying not in a blaze of glorious violence, but dying to self, quietly, over the ordinary course of a lifetime… Jesus praises them (Mt 19:12)… St. Paul devotes the greater part of a chapter, in his first letter to the Corinthians, to the care of them… Who are these “white martyrs”? and what makes them “Holy” ? The Book or Revelation presents them as those who are already living as if they are in heaven, unencumbered as they follow Christ…“for they are chaste: it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb” (Rev. 14:4)
They were the Church’s celibate members and consecrated virgins…We have them in the Catholic church, praise God.
 
maryj said:
The church is Holy:
Many people today equate holiness with mere righteousness or good behavior, but they’re not the same thing…
though the two qualities must coexsist in the same soul. That is the literal meaning of “justification” and “sanctification” We are “made righteous” and " made Holy"
The Hebrew word for holiness is kiddushin, literally it means “set apart”- reserved for a special purpose- as the Temple is set apart from other buildings, as the Sabbath is set apart from other days of the week, and as a bride is “set apart” for her groom.

Here’s the part I love the most, that I learned, while studying what these four marks of the church mean…The ancient church venerated the martyrs. We see that in the NT (Heb 11:35-38, Rev : 6:9-11) But the earliest christians venerated another group more than the martyrs. This group comprised those Christians who had renounced normal family life for the sake of Christ and His Kingdom. “white martyrdom” dying not in a blaze of glorious violence, but dying to self, quietly, over the ordinary course of a lifetime… Jesus praises them (Mt 19:12)… St. Paul devotes the greater part of a chapter, in his first letter to the Corinthians, to the care of them… Who are these “white martyrs”? and what makes them “Holy” ? The Book or Revelation presents them as those who are already living as if they are in heaven, unencumbered as they follow Christ…“for they are chaste: it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb” (Rev. 14:4)
They were the Church’s celibate members and consecrated virgins…We have them in the Catholic church, praise God.
Click to expand...
But are all the Fruits that eminate from the Church today HOLY? Obviously not or we wouldnt have the scandal and the extremists some of whom advocate against that which the Church has condemned (Women ordination , Homosexuality , Birth control Etc) So - are they who advocate these thinggs doing as the Holy Spirit inspires them to do in acccord with the Mark of the Church? Or is some of the fruit rotten?
 
Robert_Burns said:
But are all the Fruits that eminate from the Church today HOLY? Obviously not or we wouldnt have the scandal and the extremists some of whom advocate against that which the Church has condemned (Women ordination , Homosexuality , Birth control Etc) So - are they who advocate these thinggs doing as the Holy Spirit inspires them to do in acccord with the Mark of the Church? Or is some of the fruit rotten?
Click to expand...
We are a church of sinners, that is why Jesus Christ came. I don’t think the Holy Spirit advocates things that go against the church…so we must look to the fruit and yes…some of it is stinking rotten. Do I think the church is not Holy because of it…absolutely not…it doesn’t work like that.
 
maryj said:
We are a church of sinners, that is why Jesus Christ came. I don’t think the Holy Spirit advocates things that go against the church…so we must look to the fruit and yes…some of it is stinking rotten. Do I think the church is not Holy because of it…absolutely not…it doesn’t work like that.
Click to expand...
Yes we are a Church of Sinners , but if Sinners not who glory in their Sins but instead who aspire to be Saints. We hold up Saints of every age for example and veneration. So when we say the Church is One and Holy - these are two of the Marks of the Church Militant that are united with the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant in the State of Sanctifying Grace. Certainly the Holy Ghost no longer dwells in the Soul that is dead through Mortal Sin. So how then can that Soul stake a claim to Unity with the Body of Christ? Now - the only ones that know are GOD and that sinner. Certainly Catholic Charity dictates we give our neighbor the benefit of the doubt , but not to the point of glorifying Sin or of saying we cant help ourselves or of making excuses so as to in some cases enable the sinner to justify his actions as not his fault. To me , too much of that is going on today. If we are to lead a GOD centered life - then there is no place for Sin in it. Our Unity must be with the Saints - not the sinners and if we fall - it has to mean something so as to make repentance the main priority so as to not come to the end of our lives on the outside looking in. When St Paul says to put on the “New Man” it has to have meaning. It is in that “New Man” that both Unity and Holiness dwell and not with only the Church militant but with the Church Triumphant and Church Suffering as well.

Pax
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top