The 5th Marian doctrine is heresy

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levi86

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I’m a convert to the Church, and to Christianity for that matter and am set to join the church this year, so please bare with me. I recently started a thread “How powerful is Mary?” I started to hear for the first time some things that disturbed me, that all graces comes come through (not from) Mary.

I began to look into the issue and discovered that this almost universally held by the church, and that a fifth Marian dogma is being considered “Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix of All Graces, and Advocate”.

I accept perfectly the “co-redemtrix” part, as I acknowledge her role in salvation. However the second and third parts really scare me.

“Mediatrix of All Graces” is meant to indicate that ALL the Graces of God flow through her compliments of the holy spirit eg. Father/Son-Holy Ghost-Mary. To associate such power with Mary puts her on par with the trinity, which frightens me beyond belief.

With respect to “advocate”, this is meant to indicate that Mary is our human advocate to God and someone who can be used as an intermediary because of her human nature. My present image of Mary praying to God on our behalf has now been blown out of the water.

This new dogma contradicts the perfection of the incarnation. Because God became man he is now our advocate with a human nature. To acknowledge that Mary is needed to be this human link between us and God takes away from the Majesty and perfection of the incarnation.

I’ve been able to swallow all the other Marian Dogma to this point, even though most are non existent in the bible and are not mentioned by the Church Fathers until the 4th century, I have trusted the Church and have not questioned. this doctrine however is OVER THE TOP.

If I don’t reconcile this issue with myself I am most definitely going to leave the Church!!
 
With regards to advocate, my understanding here is that it is almost the same as that of her as coredemptrix, meaning she works with Christ for our salvation, the same way that we help each other to achieve that goal. I do not see any reason to be afraid of that; it is only fitting to ask if that is problematic, then it should be problematic as well for us to pray for one another, as indeed anyone “can be used as an intermediary because of his human nature”.
 
I think I agree with you Milliardo, as long as it’s simply a case of intersession eg. We pray to Mary and Mary prays to God… I think the “mediatrix of all graces” is the big issue here.
 
I love Catholicism, and I am a revert to Catholicism, but tthe Fifth Marian Dogma hasn’t been actually dogmatic in the teachings of the Catholic Church, not that I know of. I accept that I can ask for her prayers, and for her to pray for me, and that I could be consecrated to her as her child.

But the problem with the terminology such as “Mediatrix of All Graces” will be misunderstood easily, and I, as comfortable as I am with Mama Mary, am uncomfortable with that and the title Advocate, since the Holy Spirit should be the main Advocate.

From all Mariology is concerned, these titles are left for only the private, and I believe they haven’t been declared officially as binding and dogmatic for Catholics. I’m sure other people can give their thoughts here.
 
Of course with this being not in the least bit agreeable with Protestants, as they contend it will be the final piece in the puzzle of completing Mary’s “goddesshood” in the Catholic Church. And in their usual twisted interpretation of things will claim she will be by defacto a fourth person in the Trinty, thus creating a so-called “Quadrinity” within Catholicism.
 
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Catholic29:
Of course with this being not in the least bit agreeable with Protestants, as they contend it will be the final piece in the puzzle of completing Mary’s “goddesshood” in the Catholic Church. And in their usual twisted interpretation of things will claim she will be by defacto a fourth person in the Trinty, thus creating a so-called “Quadrinity” within Catholicism.
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Catholic29,

I’m as Catholic friendly as they come, and I chose this church over many. But this will put Mary on par with God; I really don’t see how Protestants could see it any other way.

But I think many Catholics may just accept it because of our love for Our Lady.
 
With respect to “advocate”, this is meant to indicate that Mary is our human advocate to God and someone who can be used as an intermediary because of her human nature. My present image of Mary praying to God on our behalf has now been blown out of the water.
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This new dogma contradicts the perfection of the incarnation. Because God became man he is now our advocate with a human nature. To acknowledge that Mary is needed to be this human link between us and God takes away from the Majesty and perfection of the incarnation.
Click to expand...
I’ve been able to swallow all the other Marian Dogma to this point, even though most are non existent in the bible and are not mentioned by the Church Fathers until the 4th century, I have trusted the Church and have not questioned. this doctrine however is OVER THE TOP.

If I don’t reconcile this issue with myself I am most definitely going to leave the Church!!
Hi levi86,
I think you are still looking at these ideas with some non-Catholic “coloration” to your thinking & that may be why they are troubling you so much. There is nothing in the doctrine that you cite that in anyway even implies a belief that Mary is divine. I’ve heard this before from anti-Catholics, (which is no reflection on you, my friend) but the fact is that it’s just not true.

Mary is the first best non-divine advocate and intermediary, but her position as such in no way elevates her to become some form of “goddesshood” in any way implying that there are now 4 persons in one God. That would indeed be heresy.

You seem distressed that there is so little specific scripture & ECF reference to this & the other Marian teachings, yet you also seem to have forgotten that we grow in our understanding of all aspects of Christianity and that the church only makes these clarifying statements either when a belief is attacked, or discussion and study bring some new light to what we already believe. Bear in mind that theTrinity and many other doctrines had to be defined by the church as well, though they were believed long before they were defined by the church.

Mary is THE most unique human being in all of history, right behind Our Lord Himself. No one else had anything like the occurences in their life that she did, and as a result hers is a position in Christianity that we are still sorting out and coming to better understand.

There is no contradiction of the incarnation, though some outside the church will certainly attempt to use the statements about it to allege that there is. Mary was indeed needed in that God chose her in His divine will and wisdom for the tasks, blessings and graces He bestowed on her to suit her unique purpose in His plan.

Consider 2 very important things about the Blessed Virgin.
  1. Just by the fact that she gave birth to Our Lord, the King of Kinds and Messiah from the line of David, she automatically inherits the biblical title of “Giberah” or “Queen Mother”, with the same functions that that post held in the OT and you can see that she understood that role and began to function in it even in John 2, where without anyone asking her she interceded with her Son on behalf of the newlywed couple, and he complied. HOWEVER, you must also note the message that she conveyed even then. (John 2:5) His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. and there is no ambiguity in that at all. It is the very same message that she has conveyed to the faithful in every approved apparition in history.
  2. Psalms 118:23 This is the Lord’s doing: and it is wonderful in our eyes.
    Levi, Mary is both intercessor and evangelist in a very unique way. No other member of the body of Christ is like her, and that is by God’s own doing. Look here at her own words in the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke. 46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. (Emphasis mine). She knew and professed that all that she was is from the hand of God, and this is all that the church is saying.
Her place as “mediatrix” is simply a statement that since she bore Christ in the flesh that she is indirectly the conduit of all the graces that we recieve from Our lord.

Please PM me if you have any other questions, or I’ll meet you here to help with this discussion. By all means relax though…this is neither heresy nor reason to leave the church.
Pax tecum,
 
As of now there are only four Marian Dogmas:

The Immaculate Conception, The Perpetual Virginity of Our Lady, Mary is the Mother of God, and The Assumption of Our Lady into Heaven.
 
An article that might help
SHOULD MARY BE CALLED “MEDIATRIX”?
Q: I can accept most of the Church’s teaching on Mary, but I struggle with the Church calling Mary the mediatrix of all graces. This seems to be a violation of 1 Timothy 2:5–6, where Scripture states that Jesus, through his death on the cross, is the one mediator between God and man. Please explain.

A: Mary’s title of mediatrix arises from her cooperation in the Incarnation and in the redemption of mankind. Through her “yes” (Luke 1:38), she became the Theotokos (God-bearer), and, as the “New Eve,” she is “the Mother of all living.”

Irenaeus (A.D. 120–200) wrote, “As by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved, a virgin’s disobedience by a virgin’s obedience” (Against Heresies, 3, 22, 19). Eve made the Fall possible, but Adam effected it; Mary made our redemption possible (by consenting to bring the Savior into the world), but Jesus effected it.

God permitted the redemption of mankind to depend on the free-will decision of a human being. Whether or not we would have a mediator was dependent on Mary’s “yes.” Had there been no “yes” from Mary, there would have been no mediator. Thus the graces that come through Jesus may be said to come to us, in a secondary way, via Mary—not as the origin of the graces, but as a conduit. The Catholic Church always has taught that Jesus Christ alone redeemed mankind (neither Mary nor any other creature had the power to do so), and ultimately only through him are salvation and grace obtained.

Even we are mediators, in a lesser sense. The word “mediator” means someone who is a go-between. In 1 Timothy 2:5, which refers to Jesus as the “one mediator,” the Greek word for “one” is heis, which means “first” or “primary” and does not denote something exclusive. In fact, we are all mediators when we pray for one another. As members of the Mystical Body of Christ, we all share in Christ’s role as mediator, but our efforts at being go-betweens “work” only because of what he has done.

Our mediating in no way diminishes the role of Christ as mediator; in fact, it glorifies the Father, because it is through Jesus that we can approach with confidence the throne of grace (Heb. 4:14–16). How much more does Jesus give his mother Mary the privilege to be a participant in the distribution of grace!

—Peggy Frye
Link to above article
Pax tecum,
 
So does that mean Mary’s role as mediatrix of all graces is restricted to her initial involvement, and that she no longer actively does this in today’s world. Instead we are still feeling the grace from her initial act? in other words, any grace we recieve compliments of Mary is simply a Knock on effect of her original act?

Is this one of those “God operates outside of time things”?
 
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levi86:
So does that mean Mary’s role as mediatrix of all graces is restricted to her initial involvement, and that she no longer actively does this in today’s world. Instead we are still feeling the grace from her initial act?
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I am not sure what you mean by this; to just make an analogy, she’s also ever-virgin; now, she’s in heaven, and we know that such a title would have little bearing in that place, since one’s sexuality is moot in the presence of God, but we still do acknowledge her as such. So the title “Mediatrix of All Graces” still stands, even if she has fulfilled that role already.
 
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levi86:
So does that mean Mary’s role as mediatrix of all graces is restricted to her initial involvement, and that she no longer actively does this in today’s world. Instead we are still feeling the grace from her initial act? in other words, any grace we recieve compliments of Mary is simply a Knock on effect of her original act?

Is this one of those “God operates outside of time things”?
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This is the way I’ve always understood it, Levi. I think your initial read (which is understandible) is that anytime God wants to heal, bless, or touch someone, he has to siphon it through Mary, even now. As some have stated, this isn’t an official dogma, but even it it were, it would mean only that she is door through which Christ brought his graces by becoming man through the incarnation. It is a way of highlighting her as a model of how we all should give ourselves completely to God to use as instruments for his grace. It is like the term co-redemptrix - so many hear that and think we are saying that Christ AND Mary equally redeemed us. What we really mean is that Christ redeemed us and Mary cooperated as we are all called to cooperate by saying “yes”. She was just the initial (and most resounding) “yes”, which made it possible for the rest of us to follow along. She said “yes” to redemption, but Christ, himself, offered it.
 
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awfulthings9:
Originally Posted by levi86
So does that mean Mary’s role as mediatrix of all graces is restricted to her initial involvement, and that she no longer actively does this in today’s world. Instead we are still feeling the grace from her initial act? in other words, any grace we recieve compliments of Mary is simply a Knock on effect of her original act?
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Is this one of those “God operates outside of time things”?
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This is the way I’ve always understood it, Levi.
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It is in that sense that there is nothing stopping it from becoming a dogma, and is a “Sent. certa” teaching of the Church.
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awfulthings9:
I think your initial read (which is understandible) is that anytime God wants to heal, bless, or touch someone, he has to siphon it through Mary, even now. As some have stated, this isn’t an official dogma,
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It is not dogma, but is piously believed to be the case that she somehow actually cooperates, even if someone doesn’t directly ask for her help.

hurst
 
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levi86:
I think I agree with you Milliardo, as long as it’s simply a case of intersession eg. We pray to Mary and Mary prays to God… I think the “mediatrix of all graces” is the big issue here.
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I am a cradle Catholic, and I had to have this explained to me. The term “mediatrix of all graces” was used by Early Church Fathers to explain Mary’s role in the Church and her role as the Mother of the Church. From what I now understand, Mary works with The Holy Trinity, not on par with them and not as a goddess. She is a creature - a perfectly created woman - and her role as the New Eve gives her a special avenue of grace and a special role as Mother of the Church.

I don’t believe it is out of line with basic Christian Doctrine, it is merely an explanation as to why she has such a special role in Salvation History.
 
My memory may be faulty, but did not John Paul II and the Vatican decline fairly recently to officially name Mary as Co-redemptrix? Reason? I don’t recall.
 
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levi86:
“Mediatrix of All Graces” is meant to indicate that ALL the Graces of God flow through her compliments of the holy spirit eg. Father/Son-Holy Ghost-Mary. To associate such power with Mary puts her on par with the trinity, which frightens me beyond belief.
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No matter how high Mary is exalted, she will never ever ever be God. There absolutely no danger whatsoever, due to the nature of the relationship of God with His creatures.

We are nothing of ourselves. God is. God created us out of nothing, in Himself. We are like a bubble in a batch of dough. The dough forms its boundary, and the bigger of a bubble we are, the more dough we know. But we are emptiness, and are not the dough. No matter how big God makes a bubble, it is still nothing apart from Himself.

It is to the glory of God that He made, from nothing, a creature in His image. And He lets us participate in His eternal life somehow. He made a Kingdom, and we are His subjects. He gives to each of us different gifts and graces. To Mary He gives the highest exaltation possible to a pure creature. She is nothing compared to Christ, though, because Christ is both creature and God. Christ is in His very nature God, and man. God exalted Him above all, but even Christ is going to submit all to God after all has been put under Christ’s feet.

But we imitate Christ in honoring Mary above all pure creatures. Christ emptied Himself, and gave to His creatures. We, too, must love our fellow creatures, if we expect to be able to love God.

In the end, it is God Himself Who wishes to associate so much of Himself with Mary, who was so humble.

But yes, it would be scary if you attributed to her the nature of God, for that would be idolatry. I would go so far to say that God is not able to make a creature become God. No matter what God does for a creature, they can never become God. We are only like God in a reverse-video or film-negative way. We are just an image. We are nothing, He is everything. We only exist in Him.

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and are

Romans 11:36 For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:16 For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him.
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levi86:
With respect to “advocate”, this is meant to indicate that Mary is our human advocate to God and someone who can be used as an intermediary because of her human nature. My present image of Mary praying to God on our behalf has now been blown out of the water.
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She is our advocate with Jesus, for grace. Jesus is our advocate in justice with our Father. All is to the glory of God.

Yet, she has a will. The very fact that she is not God is what forms the basis for honoring her distinctly. But in honoring her, all redounds to the honor and glory of Jesus our King and God.

Again, a simple lesson of love. My son loves his mother, and is always preferring her over me. To him, she is more desirable than me, even though she has to answer to me. For when he deals with me directly, I hold him accountable by himself. But when he is helped by his mother, I deal with her and she adds her efforts and care and makes up for his shortcomings in such a way that he will obtain a more favorable hearing, and assistance on top of that. She makes up for his lack of respect.

Jesus is our savior and sole advocate with the Father. But thanks be to God, He gives us His mother to help us obtain grace from Jesus and give honor to Jesus so that we are not alone!
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levi86:
This new dogma contradicts the perfection of the incarnation. Because God became man he is now our advocate with a human nature. To acknowledge that Mary is needed to be this human link between us and God takes away from the Majesty and perfection of the incarnation.
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Not if she is only our advocate for grace in Jesus Christ.

We cannot remove the work of Christ, because it is the basis of the value of Mary. Mary did not save herself. She cannot present herself to the Father and atone for our sins. Yet she can help us persevere and obtain the most benefit from the redemption Christ purchased for us.

Yet, Mary is certainly needed for our salvation, because it intrinsically required her cooperation. In fact, a certain honor is due to the patriarchs as well, and all the faithful who throughout the years passed down the faith.

I would recommend the book “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ludwig Ott. This will provide a more solid foundation for you to reconcile things.

hurst
 
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rwoehmke:
My memory may be faulty, but did not John Paul II and the Vatican decline fairly recently to officially name Mary as Co-redemptrix? Reason? I don’t recall.
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Here’s a story which seems to cover the matter pretty well.

Czestochowa Commission
 
Ave Maria!

How I love Our Lady! She is the channel Our Blessed Savior chose from all eternity to come to us. How can it be a problem to go to Him through her? An advocate is one who takes your side and ‘pleads your case’ so to speak. Mary has been my advocate.

I was a lukewarm, liberal Catholic–picking and choosing what I liked and did not like in the Church. I went 19 years between confessions. I was NOT in a state of grace. Finally, Our Blessed Lord pulled out all stops and let His Mother have a go at me. And for some strange reason, I became interested in Mary. WELL! Mary has one role for us and that is to lead us to her Son. Lead she did! I returned to the Sacraments; I relearned the faith of my childhood. I have gone to confession monthly and more often for over 11 years now. I am a daily communicant. I have falled deeply in love with Jesus present in the Blessed Sacrament. I owe it all to Mary, who brought me to her Son.

Mary is the Mother of the Church. Our Lord merited all graces and chose to have them come through the Immaculate one, she who was specially created to be His Mother and ours in the spiritual realm. Yes, she is mediatrix. These are not new thoughts! Mediatrix and Advocate and Mother of the Church are titles from the second Vatican Council even. St. Bernard, a thousand years ago wrote of Mary as co-redemptrix because of her role WITH and UNDER Christ. Her fiat, her yes, brought the Redeemer to incarnation.

Our Lady is not God and never ever tries to be or hints to be. But we know from Our Lord’s first miracle at her request, that He who perfectly honored His Father in Heaven and His Mother on earth,
will not say no to her request. Secondly, no request of hers is outside fo God’s will.

Do not fear Our Lady! This gentle Mother leads souls to the fullness of faith and to her Son. Think of the Marian apparition sites such as Guadalupe and Lourdes to mention two. What goes on there? MASS! Masses everyday and all day. Our Lady brings souls to her Son at Holy Mass. She always wishes for a church to be built so her Son can be adored there!

It can be difficult to understand but have faith. Pick up the Rosary and take a step out in faith. See what happens.

In Cordibus Jesu et Mariae
 
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