The 5th Marian doctrine is heresy

[Philthy]

levi86:

“Mediatrix of All Graces” is meant to indicate that ALL the Graces of God flow through her compliments of the holy spirit eg. Father/Son-Holy Ghost-Mary. To associate such power with Mary puts her on par with the trinity, which frightens me beyond belief.

…this doctrine however is OVER THE TOP. If I don’t reconcile this issue with myself I am most definitely going to leave the Church!!

Im confused by what you mean when you say “all Graces flow through her”. Do you mean that all Grace which has its only origin in God MUST flow through her? Or simply that ANY grace of God CAN flow through her. Big difference, I would think, and if it is the latter concept I doubt you would have so much trouble with it, no?

Phil

 

[adventistnomore]

Philthy:

Im confused by what you mean when you say “all Graces flow through her”. Do you mean that all Grace which has its only origin in God MUST flow through her? Or simply that ANY grace of God CAN flow through her. Big difference, I would think, and if it is the latter concept I doubt you would have so much trouble with it, no?

Phil

How about “all graces DO flow through her”

 

[levi86]

Philthy:

Im confused by what you mean when you say “all Graces flow through her”. Do you mean that all Grace which has its only origin in God MUST flow through her? Or simply that ANY grace of God CAN flow through her. Big difference, I would think, and if it is the latter concept I doubt you would have so much trouble with it, no?

Phil

Lets just think about the purpose of the Holy Ghost for a moment. Its role is to transfer the power of God from the Father/Son to the universe (this includes Grace ect.).

Therefore by claiming that grace is distributed through Mary is claiming that she has a similar power to that of The Holy Ghost (God), HOW IS THIS NOT PUTTING HER ON PAR WITH GOD???

By claiming that Grace flows through Mary is to diminish the importance of The Holy Ghost and to render it impotent. In this sense the Holy Ghost becomes no more than an “extention cord” between The Father/Son and Mary

 

[Ave_Maria_1]

Our Lady has been proclaimed by many saints, including St. Francis of Assisi and St. Maximilian, as the spouse of the Holy Spirit, who overshadowed her and by whose power she concieved our Savior.

She is NOT a member of the Trinity! But to her belongs hyperdulia–that veneration above the saints but NOT on par with latria which is adoration due to God alone.

Ave Maria!

 

[Milliardo]

Let’s step back for a moment and understand what the title, “Mediatrix of All Graces”, means. Now, from what I understand about this, Mary mediated in bringing about Jesus into the world, who is indeed All Graces. So from that understanding, there should be no objection about the title itself, since it’s only saying that Mary bore Jesus in her womb, and so she is the Mediatrix of All Graces.

 

[hurst]

levi86:

Lets just think about the purpose of the Holy Ghost for a moment. Its role is to transfer the power of God from the Father/Son to the universe (this includes Grace ect.).

Can you tell us where you learned it this way?

The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son; the Will, the Love of God. The Holy Ghost is considered as the Divine Dispenser of Grace (1 Cor 12:11).

But the Holy Ghost receives of the Son and glorifies Him

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. 14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

But Jesus was given to Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit

Luke 1:35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Therefore, Mary gives us Jesus, from Whom we receive the Holy Ghost. Truly, all graces come to us by Mary.

levi86:

Therefore by claiming that grace is distributed through Mary is claiming that she has a similar power to that of The Holy Ghost (God), HOW IS THIS NOT PUTTING HER ON PAR WITH GOD???

She has the power of God in that she brings God to us.

levi86:

By claiming that Grace flows through Mary is to diminish the importance of The Holy Ghost and to render it impotent.

On the contrary, it is to elevate Mary’s role, who gives us Jesus from Whom is all grace.

levi86:

In this sense the Holy Ghost becomes no more than an “extention cord” between The Father/Son and Mary

Mary is not part of the Trinity. The Holy Ghost is. But in her unique role as the mother of Jesus, she is the mother of the source of all grace, since the Holy Ghost proceeds also from the Son.

There is more to this, but let it suffice to say that we must study what the Church teaches on this more before jumping to the conclusion that something is amiss.

hurst

 

[CARose]

Hurst,

While I can read your posts from a Catholic perspective and understand where you’re coming from, without misreading that you’re suggesting Mary is Divine, I’m concerned that you’re using language that makes it certainly appear that you’re suggesting that she is Divine (e.g. “She has the power of God in that she brings God to us.”) if read from a Protestant perspective.

I appreciate your love and devotion for Mary, but I’d like to encourage you to be cautious to not over state the case in a way that will confuse our Love for Mary in such a way that it might appear to be Latria, the worship reserved for God alone.

CARose

 

[levi86]

Milliardo:

Let’s step back for a moment and understand what the title, “Mediatrix of All Graces”, means. Now, from what I understand about this, Mary mediated in bringing about Jesus into the world, who is indeed All Graces. So from that understanding, there should be no objection about the title itself, since it’s only saying that Mary bore Jesus in her womb, and so she is the Mediatrix of All Graces.

This sits fine with me. If this is not truly what is meant by “Mediatrix of all graces” than someone let me know, if not I think I can be comfortable with it and put the matter to rest.

Thanks for all your help everyone
In Christ
Levi

 

[CARose]

Levi,

I think you would be consistant with Catholic teaching to take Milliardo’s definition of Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace.

CARose

 

[Ave_Maria_1]

quote:Let’s step back for a moment and understand what the title, “Mediatrix of All Graces”, means. Now, from what I understand about this, Mary mediated in bringing about Jesus into the world, who is indeed All Graces. So from that understanding, there should be no objection about the title itself, since it’s only saying that Mary bore Jesus in her womb, and so she is the Mediatrix of All Graces.

No, this is Not what the title means! Our Lady is the channel of graces–presently and not just because she was once, in time, the Theotokos (God-bearer). We have one Mediator with the Father and that is the Son, Jesus. But that does not mean we do not have any other mediation to Jesus. Our Lady has a special place and a special cooperation in the order of grace. She is not the originator but is the channel. Some have said that with Christ as the Head of the Church and we the Body of Christ, His Church --that Mary is the neck.

Ever read True Devotion to Mary? It is by St. Louis de Montfort.
I recommend it! That will cause some thought!!! Or how about The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus Liguori? Or The Mother of Our Savior by Fr. R. Garrigou-LaGrange? I suggest some further studies on Our Lady’s unique place in salvation history. Our Lord chose her in a special way.

Ave Maria!
Totus Tuus!
To Jesus through Mary!

 

[Superstar905]

What I don’t understand, is why is this even being discussed in Catholic circles. Who cares? It makes no difference to me if Mary is Mediatrix of all Graces, and to make this dogma is, in my opinion, un-necessary.

The other dogmas I can see in relation to the truths they teach about Christ, and how they relate to the various Christological heresies of the day, but this to me does nothing but raise confusion among the faithful.

I personally don’t have a problem with the title and what it means, but it represents another barrier to non-Catholic Christians trying to absorb the faith.

That said, until the Church actually defines this as Dogma, and adequately explains it, we need not worry.

 

[hurst]

CARose:

I’m concerned that you’re using language that makes it certainly appear that you’re suggesting that she is Divine (e.g. “She has the power of God in that she brings God to us.”) if read from a Protestant perspective.

I filled that post with reiterations that even an atheist should be able to see distinguishes any creature forever from God.

But yes, language and semantics can often be a source of confusion, especially when talking about “existence” or “being”.

Still, we cannot cater to the mind of someone determined to retain their own view. Anyone with questions will hopefully post them for clarification.

CARose:

… I’d like to encourage you to be cautious to not over state the case in a way that will confuse our Love for Mary in such a way that it might appear to be Latria, the worship reserved for God alone.

Dear CARose, the Protestants generally don’t understand what “Latria” is. They essentially only render “hyperdulia” to Our Lord, and so anytime we do the same to Mary, they will be scandalized.

Even Jesus became the source of scandal. But I believe He did take measures to prevent any unnecessary appearance of scandal.

Now, this is a Catholic board. Any non-Catholic ought to be expected to take that into account. So I don’t think your concern quite applies here.

If anything, I would like to encourage you and other Catholics to be cautious not to lessen the love we ought to show Mary, because she magnifies the Lord. And especially not to be ashamed of our love for Mary, even as we should not be ashamed of Jesus and His Gospel.

I don’t think it is even possible to overstate the case regarding Mary. Perhaps the only distinction needed is that she is not actually God. God filled her with everything it is possible to give to a pure creature, including Himself! She is the work of God, and Jesus is her God, and also her child. It is amazing and stupendous!

I can understand if you don’t see it that way, but why be so nervous about those who happen to be zealous to make her renowned? Why not instead have a holy envy to also gain the same appreciation? She does much for those who have confidence in her.

Let us not limit the salvation experienced in the Communion of Saints.

hurst

 

[Milliardo]

Ave Maria!:

But that does not mean we do not have any other mediation to Jesus.

I think you’re confusing Mary’s role as co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix. Though in a larger sense she mediates for us to Christ, the title Mediatrix of All Graces should mean that she is the mediator of All Graces, which is Christ. That is what the title implies.

 

[CARose]

Hurst,

I worry because I have found this forum a wonderful opportunity for our Protestant brethren, (and even our fellow Catholics who have not been adequately catechised and in danger of losing their Faith in the One Holy catholic and Apostolic Church) to learn what the Church teaches and why we do not deify Mary, and yet that she is due all the honor we accord her.

I don’t believe anyone who has read my posts over the past 1 1/2 yrs would suggest that I have ever accuse me of lessening my Love for Mary, for anyone’s sake. She’s awesome and I know she understands that I feel that way towards her.

But I (we) do NOT consider Mary a Goddess. This is something that stands between many Protesants and their return to the Body of Christ. I do not want my words, or those of my brother, to prevent anyone from attaining salvation.

CARose

 

[tomaskovarik]

Psalm45:9:

As of now there are only four Marian Dogmas:

The Immaculate Conception, The Perpetual Virginity of Our Lady, Mary is the Mother of God, and The Assumption of Our Lady into Heaven.

The entire Mary thing I am putting on hold, because I just don’t understand it. I am an ex-protestant and so Mary is kind of out of question for me. I am probably wrong, but thats what I feel.
Toms

 

[CARose]

Tomas,

Mary is frequently one of the last teachings of the Church which a convert is able to accept. Know that when you finally are able to follow Christ such that you Love her as a loving son loved her, you will have arrived Home in Rome.

God Bless you for not fighting against the teaching even if you’re not fully ready to understand and accept it at this time.

CARose

 

[Catholic29]

CARose:

Hurst,

I worry because I have found this forum a wonderful opportunity for our Protestant brethren, (and even our fellow Catholics who have not been adequately catechised and in danger of losing their Faith in the One Holy catholic and Apostolic Church) to learn what the Church teaches and why we do not deify Mary, and yet that she is due all the honor we accord her.

I don’t believe anyone who has read my posts over the past 1 1/2 yrs would suggest that I have ever accuse me of lessening my Love for Mary, for anyone’s sake. She’s awesome and I know she understands that I feel that way towards her.

But I (we) do NOT consider Mary a Goddess. This is something that stands between many Protesants and their return to the Body of Christ. I do not want my words, or those of my brother, to prevent anyone from attaining salvation.

CARose

You and I are on the same page.

 

[CARose]

Catholic29:

You and I are on the same page.

Thanks.

Hurst,

I considered sending you a PM, but I posted it because I really thought it was important that others reading the thread heard my concerns, as they might think my (and others) silence meant I agreed with your posts in the way they could be misunderstood. I love Mary and don’t want anyone scared away from knowing her and loving her as we are taught through the wonderful teachings of the Church Christ left us.

CARose

 

[marcadam]

Quickly:

“How powerful is Mary?”

“Behold the handmaid of the Lord: be it done to me according to thy word.”

“Mediatrix of All Graces” is meant to indicate that ALL the Graces of God flow through her compliments of the holy spirit eg. Father/Son-Holy Ghost-Mary. To associate such power with Mary puts her on par with the trinity, which frightens me beyond belief.

Not to sound too flippant, but what could be more clear than the chasm that separates creature and creator? How much more distinct could source and vessel be? All men are given some level of “parity” with God: we were given the gift of free will. She united hers with the will of her creator. Utterly.

And yet, there is still plenty of daylight between her and the Trinity. You say this concept “puts her on par” with them, but how? Given the context of it, the whole Catholic order of the universe, I just don’t get what there is to get so worked up about.

With respect to “advocate”, this is meant to indicate that Mary is our human advocate to God and someone who can be used as an intermediary because of her human nature. My present image of Mary praying to God on our behalf has now been blown out of the water.

And yet, her praying to God on our behalf is precisely the nature of her advocacy. As it is in anyone who prays for another. In this sense we are all “advocates” to some extent or another. Because she is utterly unstained, she just happens to be the best one… who is nonetheless still a creature.

This new dogma contradicts the perfection of the incarnation. Because God became man he is now our advocate with a human nature. To acknowledge that Mary is needed to be this human link between us and God takes away from the Majesty and perfection of the incarnation.

And yet God chose to be born of a woman. She is his mother. Whom he created to be his perfect vessel. And yet who spurred him to begin his public life. The mind boggles at the mystery, but the mystery doesn’t imply imperfection.

I’ve been able to swallow all the other Marian Dogma to this point, even though most are non existent in the bible and are not mentioned by the Church Fathers until the 4th century, I have trusted the Church and have not questioned. this doctrine however is OVER THE TOP.

If I don’t reconcile this issue with myself I am most definitely going to leave the Church!!

Then disregard it for the time being. It has not been dogmatically defined. Take the opportunity to grow in the faith otherwise: there’s a whole lot more to Catholicism than Mary

 

[JOHNYJ]

These Titles have been declared 'scandals to the faithful " and in my opinion smack of heresy !