I’m beginning to wonder what your goal here is. You seem to be getting more and more worked up, seeing “either/ors” in a variety of places where “both/ands” apply. Repeatedly, you insist on seeing/reading into texts meanings which simply cannot be read out of them. Moreover your reading is merely assertion. Continually those of us who hold to the faith that is the source of those texts assure you that you are mistaken, but you ignore these assurances and continue to assert against all reason your discomfort with these texts/beliefs. Discomfort you may feel, and you may be used to reading Marian deity into all Catholic texts, but having been educated otherwise, you need to do the hard work of humility.
Just a couple of examples:
levi86:
Superstar905:
Anyone or anything can lead us to Christ, but Mary, by virture of her special role in the divine plan, and the uniting of her sacred heart, can do so like no other…especially given her relationship with Jesus, and Mary soul Magnifying the Lord…in other words, to look to Mary, is to see the Lord more deeply.
……he that hath seen me hath seen the Father……( John 14:9)
See what I mean? You all clearly state that Mary is not to be compared with God, yet you take every opportunity possible to do just that. Your all trying to get her as close as possible without crossing that line (and I’m not saying that some of you haven’t)
You are reading something that simply isn’t there. Superstar wasa in effect comparing Mary to other
creatures not to God. Is she the greatest of his creatures? Yes. But no matter how great she is, there is an infinite gulf between her and her creator. Period. She has nothing that God did not will her to have. Her creation, like all creation, is entirely contingent upon God’s will. She does exist
ex nihilo. She is the greatest of creatures
precisely because man in general is the capstone of creation, and she more than any other
saw her infinitesimal nature and placed herself perfectly in her creator’s will. I’m not sure how much more clear this can be made.
None of this contradicts the scripture you cite. Surely we see the Father when we see Jesus. But through whom did we recieve Christ? Mary and Mary alone,
as was the will of God. He didn’t not will it. He and he alone made her what she is; why is recognising the fact what she is heretical in any way? I’ve yet to see anything but your gut feelings on the subject.
Let’s take another, with a little bolding:
levi86:
RyanL
Im not quite sure Whether you’re trying to draw me to the church or push me away, how could you think this extremism could possibly help???
“25. God the Holy Spirit entrusted his wondrous gifts to Mary, his faithful spouse, and chose her as the dispenser of all he possesses, so that she distributes all his gifts and graces to whom she wills, as much as she wills, how she wills and when she wills. No heavenly gift is given to men which does not pass through her virginal hands. Such indeed is the will of God, who has decreed that we should have all things through Mary, so that, making herself poor and lowly, and hiding herself in the depths of nothingness during her whole life, she might be enriched, exalted and honoured by almighty God”. (Treatise on True Devotion To The Blessed Virgin)
The point of the bolded passages is that even here, deMontfort is underlining the fact that Mary did not, could not simply exalt herself in this fashion. None of this is possible without God’s will, but it nonetheless is.
But you assert that this is “extemism” and simply respond:
If this is Catholicism, I’m not impressed!
That will not do. If it in fact is extremism, and is somehow unimpressive, assertions aren’t enough. Your personal feelings of discomfort to which you cling are not enough. Your subjective declarations are not enough. We will need a
demonstration of the infidelity, the heresy within these statements.
We can’t convince you not to feel what you feel; there is no point to that discussion. You asked the question, and you’ve been answered. Check your feelings at the door and find a counter-argument. If you can’t, then pray for understanding.
