T
tomaskovarik
Guest
Church Militant:
MARY IS MY MOM!!!
AVE VERUM DOMINEM, QUI NOSTRA INLINEN
ALL OF YOU ARE HERETICS
MARY IS MY MOM!!!
AVE VERUM DOMINEM, QUI NOSTRA INLINEN
- Status
C
CARose
Guest
Any St. can, as St. Andrew is actually the Patron St. of Lost Souls, more than being the actual patron St. of Lost Items (although the common man seems to have so dubbed him, as many a mother, for many a generation has taught her children to ask him for the favor of assisting in locating the lost special item).
But Mary is the highest of all creation (of all CREATURES). She was given this exalted role so that she might be fit to carry Our Lord in her womb, the first tabernacle of Christ.
In this, she mediates nicely for us by showing us what we are meant to be.
As far as Mary goes, she magnifies the Lord, as stated directly in scripture. She magnifies the Lord as no other creature can, because she was unstained by sin, so she reflects the light of Christ as no other human being is capable of doing.
Remember, she is what we were meant to be. She never accepted Satan’s temptation, she remained true to God through-out her life in a way none of us had ever done before nor has managed to do since. Even with the many Graces we now have available to us, we fall as she never did.
Wow, now that’s special, and yet she only did this through the Grace and Power given by God, so that she might serve her most special function in the world. And it was only done through her allowing her will to be conformed to the Will of God.
She doesn’t compete with the Holy Spirit, as nothing created even begins to compare to the Power, Glory and Honor due to God alone. But she is the highest of all creation, to which we give the honor known in Latin (an unchanging language) as Hyperdulia. All the other saints are accorded dulia, honor, but she is given a higher dulia, a higher degree of honor. Neither even begins to approach that degree of honor, respect, devotion reserved for God alone, and known as Latria.
Love Mary! She’s His mom, so he’d want you to treat her special!
CARose
H
hurst
Guest
But it is a “pious and probable” teaching of the Church.
“Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis)”
This does not mean we are obliged to ask her directly for everything, nor does it mean that her intercession is intrinsically necessary. It means that by God’s ordinance, grace is not actually conferred without her co-operation.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 213
Actually, you bring up something I never thought about, but which sort of makes sense, if you think about the fact that Original Sin is repeatedly passed on through generation starting from Adam and Eve.
You mean there are few writings to indicate it was part of the life of the Church. But maybe it was, nonetheless. Maybe there were writings, but they did not survive? The persecutions resulted in the destruction of many writings, I believe.
Ott refers to St. Germanus of Constantinople (+733), who said:
Nobody can achieve salvation except through thee … O Most Holy One … nobody can receive a gift of grace except through thee … O Most Chaste One
Or. 9,5 Lesson of the Office of the Feast
Although that is the 8th century, where did he get the notion from?
In any case, the objective mediation is already a certain teaching, and on the edge of becoming dogma. The subjective mediation is considered fitting and probable.
hurst
H
hurst
Guest
*] Mary is truly the Mother of God (De fide)
*] Mary was conceived without stain of original sin (De fide)
*] Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the cooperation of man (De fide)
*] Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity (De fide)
*] Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin (De fide)
*] Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven (De fide)
related:
*] It is permissible and profitable to venerate the Saints in Heaven, and to invoke their intercession (De fide)
*] It is permissible and profitable to venerate the relics of the Saints (De fide)
*] It is permissible and profitable to venerate images of the Saints (De fide)
*] The degree of perfection of the beatific vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one’s merits (De fide)
There are more teachings, but these are the ones that are “de fide”, meaning of the faith to be adhered to.
tomaskovarik:
Try Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. That is what I am using for my information above.
hurst
L
levi86
Guest
hurst said:
Sorry to get off topic,
But I was always taught that we use pictures, statues and such to remind us of that person. Ok, we venerate the person but how do we venerate a picture???. Isn’t it the case that we venerate people with the use of a picture, but we don’t venerate the picture itself?
Isn’t that the definition of idolatry, putting emphasis on an object as well as or instead of the person themselves?
T
tomaskovarik
Guest
I like this comment. I would like to add that Carose is correctly saying that she is a part of “creation” (the highest part), but Jesus is not part of creation. So, Jesus is “bigger” than Mary, Jesus is part of the Holy Trinitiy and Mary is not. (Because Mary is created).Any St. can, as St. Andrew is actually the Patron St. of Lost Souls, more than being the actual patron St. of Lost Items (although the common man seems to have so dubbed him, as many a mother, for many a generation has taught her children to ask him for the favor of assisting in locating the lost special item).
But Mary is the highest of all creation (of all CREATURES). She was given this exalted role so that she might be fit to carry Our Lord in her womb, the first tabernacle of Christ.
In this, she mediates nicely for us by showing us what we are meant to be.
As far as Mary goes, she magnifies the Lord, as stated directly in scripture. She magnifies the Lord as no other creature can, because she was unstained by sin, so she reflects the light of Christ as no other human being is capable of doing.
Remember, she is what we were meant to be. She never accepted Satan’s temptation, she remained true to God through-out her life in a way none of us had ever done before nor has managed to do since. Even with the many Graces we now have available to us, we fall as she never did.
Wow, now that’s special, and yet she only did this through the Grace and Power given by God, so that she might serve her most special function in the world. And it was only done through her allowing her will to be conformed to the Will of God.
She doesn’t compete with the Holy Spirit, as nothing created even begins to compare to the Power, Glory and Honor due to God alone. But she is the highest of all creation, to which we give the honor known in Latin (an unchanging language) as Hyperdulia. All the other saints are accorded dulia, honor, but she is given a higher dulia, a higher degree of honor. Neither even begins to approach that degree of honor, respect, devotion reserved for God alone, and known as Latria.
Love Mary! She’s His mom, so he’d want you to treat her special!
CARose
The reason why I am saying this that some protestants think that we will soon add Mary to the Trinity, making it a Quadruple or something. But I really don’t think there is any danger of this. Reading this thread, I am growing in appreciating (through understanding the issue) of mother Mary. I grew up completely without Mary in my spiritual life, and now I can say that my spiritual life is becoming greatly enriched. I feel less alone in this lonely world. Maybe mother Mary is so close to us because she is created as a bona fide human being?
Tomas
C
CARose
Guest
Bingo!
CARose
T
tomaskovarik
Guest
Wow, thanks!!!
This is a revelation for me.
T
tomaskovarik
Guest
hurst said:
Great, thanks!!!
So, Mary as the Queen of Heaven is not DeFide?
H
hurst
Guest
By kissing, bowing down before them, burning of candles, incensing, etc. This chiefly developed in the Greek Church from the fifth to the seventh centuries.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma p. 320
The veneration shown to images of the saints is “Relative Dulia”. The Seventh General Council at Niceaea (787), appealing to Tradition, declared against the Iconoclasts of the Greek Church, that it is permissible to set up “the venerable and holy images” of Christ, of the Mother of God, of the angels and of all the saints, and to show them a reverent homage, but not adoration in the true and proper sense which is due to God alone; for the veneration of the image refers to the prototype. … Trent renewed these decisions … “The honour which is shown to the images refers to the prototypes which these represent.”
The Old Testament prohibition of the making and veneration of images (Ex 20:4) … is valid for Christianity only in so far as it prohibits the idolatrous veneration of images. Further, even the Old Testament knew exceptions … (cherubims on the ark Ex 25:18; brazen serpent Num 21:8)
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma p. 320
hurst
H
hurst
Guest
I don’t see it listed explicitly as such, but it is a consequence of the dogma of her being the Mother of God (mother of Jesus Christ our King). It is not considered necessary to define… Also, she has been honored as such from ancient times, and there is a liturgical feast on May 31 for it. For something to have a feast is noteworthy regarding what the Church officially believes.
Please read this very good encyclical regarding Mary as Queen of Heaven:
AD CAELI REGINAM
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON PROCLAIMING THE QUEENSHIP OF MARY
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html
- As We have already mentioned, Venerable Brothers, according to ancient tradition and the sacred liturgy the main principle on which the royal dignity of Mary rests is without doubt her Divine Motherhood. In Holy Writ, concerning the Son whom Mary will conceive, We read this sentence: “He shall be called the Son of the most High, and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father, and he shall reign in the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end,”[40] and in addition Mary is called “Mother of the Lord”;[41] from this it is easily concluded that she is a Queen, since she bore a son who, at the very moment of His conception, because of the hypostatic union of the human nature with the Word, was also as man King and Lord of all things. So with complete justice St. John Damascene could write: “When she became Mother of the Creator, she truly became Queen of every creature.”[42] Likewise, it can be said that the heavenly voice of the Archangel Gabriel was the first to proclaim Mary’s royal office.
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON PROCLAIMING THE QUEENSHIP OF MARY
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html
hurst
T
tomaskovarik
Guest
Very good and informative. Thanks!
S
Superstar905
Guest
Levi, I gave you a link to read, showing that this doctrine which has not been declared dogma yet, is NOT A NEW IDEA. I will also post this that Church Militant wrote, yet again, to show you how the Holy Spirit CONTINUES to guide the Church to deeper understanding:
As for point #2, the belief is FIRMLY HELD IN TRADITION. Here: web.archive.org/web/20030604…smus/RAZ321.HTM
Remember though, that as Church Militant pointed out here in post #7: You seem distressed that there is so little specific scripture & ECF reference to this & the other Marian teachings, yet you also seem to have forgotten that we grow in our understanding of all aspects of Christianity and that the church only makes these clarifying statements either when a belief is attacked, or discussion and study bring some new light to what we already believe.
Remember, that we grow in our understanding of all aspects of Christianity, and this proposed doctrine, is a great example of this.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
It also behooves us to remember that discussion of anything even by the Magisterium does not dogma make. This is nothing more than discussion at this time. As I said before, from all that I have read I see nothing that inclines me to believe that this will ever become dogma. It does have some meritorious points, that help with our understanding of the Blessed Virgin, & for that I am grateful, but I still do not see this becoming dogma.
Pax vobiscum,
Pax vobiscum,
A
AJV
Guest
The Eastern Orthodox churches contend that they never believed in the Immaculate Conception (though whether it can be reconciled with their thinking is another matter) I would invite you to pop into the Eastern Christianity forum and look at the debates on the IC there.
A
AJV
Guest
Dear Sir, Please forgive me if I am nitpicking or superior sounding, or something, but could you please clarify that statement. To me, it seemed a bit dangerous and I guess that is the concern that some posters expressed on this thread… it seems to imply that Mary relates better to us because she is fully human? Isn’t that treading dangerous ground? Christ is fully God and FULLY MAN. And as such, can empathise very well with our human nature.To say otherwise seems…
I don’t say this out of a lack of respect for the devotion of many Catholics but sometimes I feel that popular piety distorts the TRUE meaning of a perfectly pure and agreeable doctrine. And particularly with regard to Mariology.
A
AJV
Guest
Sorry, I’m a little thick headed but:
If I ask St. Chrysostom (my patron) for example, to intercede to obtain a grace for me, does that grace flow through Mary? And how?
If I ask St. Chrysostom (my patron) for example, to intercede to obtain a grace for me, does that grace flow through Mary? And how?
A
AJV
Guest
Dear Sir, is it possible for you to provide the full passage in which this quote was said?
A
AJV
Guest
Finally, I can question someone knowledgeable on this one. From where did this come about? Do not some of the great saints say that the devil was fooled until various stages in Our Lord’s life e.g. His temptation? And how did the devil know about this anyway?
H
hurst
Guest
Yes.
In general, we can ask God, Mary, the angels, or saints for help. The saints ask God, Mary, or the angels. The angels ask God or Mary. Mary asks God.
In the same way, Mary dispenses to the angels, saints, or us. The angels dispense to the saints or us. The saints dispense to us. We dispense to each other via good works.
This is just a general way to view it.
hurst
- Status