The 7 books

[Mannyfit75]

believers,

Do you believe in the Trinity? That the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are One God in three persons?

 

[believers]

Paul you know converted many Greeks to Christianity? He even spoke to Helenistic Jews outside of Palestine. These Greek Speaking Jews only have one Scripture, the Septuagint which is written in Greek.

So if you claim the Septuagint is not the inspired Word of God, you are again contradicting, 2 Tim 3:16-17.

We know the Septuagint is written around 285 to 247 B.C. So you basically still contradict 2 Tim 3:16-17.

Not according to Jesus.

 

[believers]

believers,

Do you believe in the Trinity? That the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are One God in three persons?

Yes, what’s your point?

Sorry… gotta run.

 

[RNRobert]

Not according to Jesus.

Please quote me the book/chapter/verse where Jesus declares which books belong in the OT and which don’t.

 

[JoeyWarren]

But again, this is just man’s history. Man cannot be trusted. Unless you were there, you don’t know for sure.

Man’s history? Yes Man cannot be trusted yet you are trusting post Ressurection Jews who presided over the Council of Jamnia to tell you what is inspired and what is not.

These Jews were and never were Christians.

If you accept their judgment of what is inspired then you have to admit that the New Testament contains ZERO inspired books because that is also their judgement.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Not according to Jesus.

State your verse? Jesus quoted Septuagint.

“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed” (taken from the Septuagint Translation of Isaiah 6:9-10)

NT:

Matthew 13.14-15: And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.

Mark 4.12: that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them.

Masoretic Text (Hebrew Text)
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn again, and be healed

 

[Mannyfit75]

Septuagint
Have ye offered to me victims and sacrifices, O house of Israel, forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Rephan, the images of them which ye made for yourselves. And I will carry you away beyond Damascus, saith the Lord, the Almighty God is his name.- Amos 5:25-27

New Testment Acts 7.42-43

But God turned, and gave them up to serve the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, Did ye offer unto me slain beasts and sacrifices Forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? And ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, And the star of the god Rephan, The figures which ye made to worship them: And I will carry you away beyond Babylon

Masoretic Text.

Did ye bring unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? Yea, ye have borne the tabernacle of your king and the shrine of your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith Jehovah, whose name is the God of hosts. -Amos 5:25-27

 

[Mannyfit75]

Isaiah 52:5

Septuagint
On account of you my name is continually blasphemed among the Gentiles

New Testament
For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles, because of you, even as it is written

Masoretic Text
my name continually all the day is blasphemed

 

[JoeyWarren]

Many of the ECF’s did not accept the deuteros, either in part or in whole.

We recognize this as well. The fact is that a group of men did come together and with the promised guidance of the Holy Spirit discerned what was inspired and what was not. At that Council it was what we have now and what you do not have. The First KVJ not to have the Dueteros was sometime after 1825 or 1829. That is more than 200 years after it was first created and more than 300 years after the Martin Luther famous day.

 

[JoeyWarren]

bump…

Whenever the subject of the Deutorcanonicals comes up there is always one statement that is made:

“The Jews don’t recognize them as inspired by God.”

But like all things Satan only wants you to know part of the truth. He keeps the rest concealed and builds upon the one truth.

So where do people get the idea that Jews don’t believe they are inspired by God? Because that is what they been told. The source of the truth is hardly ever disclosed to average Christian. So what is the source? The Jamnia Council(Synod).

Council of Jamnia occurred around 92 AD. They made at least 5 Judgements that we know of against Christians.

A. Jesus is not the promised Messiah
B. Made the distinction between Jews and Heretics(Christians)
C. Expelled Christians from the Synagogues
D. They redefined Canon of the Tanach

They set up 4 criteria that all books had to meet in order to be included.

1. The books had to conform to the Pentateuch (the first 5 books).
2. The books had to be written in Hebrew.
3. The books had to be written in Palestine.
4. The books had to be written before 400 B.C…

Baruch was not written in Palestine. Disqualified by reason 3.
Sirach and 1Maccabees were written after 400 B.C… Disqualified by reason 4.
Tobit and parts of Daniel and Esther were written in Aramaic and outside of Palestine.
Disqualified by reasons 2 and 3.
Judith was written in Aramaic. Disqualified by reason 2.
Wisdom was written in Greek. Disqualified by reason 2.
2Maccabees was written after 400 B.C. and in Greek. Disqualified by reasons 2 and 4.
New Testament disqualified by reason 2 and 4.

E: They added to their daily blessings which all Jews are required to read everyday this curse of Christians:

Officially called the “Birkat ha-minim”

“For the Apostates let there be no hope and the arrogant government be speedily uprooted in our days, Let the Nazarenes(Christians)and the minim(Heretics) be destroyed in a moment. Let them be blotted out of the Book of Life and not inscribled together with the Righteous. Blessed art thou oh Lord, who humblest the Proud.”

Why did the Jews do this?

The Temple was completely destroyed in 70 AD.
All the Priests were killed.
They were fearful that Christianity would overtake them.
They wanted to remove references that would be useful to Christians.

Prior to the birth of Christ, the Canon of the Tanach was the Alexandrian Canon a.k.a the Septuagint.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes, what’s your point?

Sorry… gotta run.

The Church defined the Trinity in the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. The Trinity is not in the Bible.

You deny history, you might as well deny the Trinity since it is doctrine defined by the Church not the Bible.

Your logic to deny history as mere man is very erroneous in logic.

There are many historical facts in the Bible, which can be supported archeologically. If you truly deny history as a whole, you might as well deny the Bible, because the Bible is the historical document concerning the Jewish people, and God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

bump…

Whenever the subject of the Deutorcanonicals comes up there is always one statement that is made:

“The Jews don’t recognize them as inspired by God.”

But like all things Satan only wants you to know part of the truth. He keeps the rest concealed and builds upon the one truth.

So where do people get the idea that Jews don’t believe they are inspired by God? Because that is what they been told. The source of the truth is hardly ever disclosed to average Christian. So what is the source? The Jamnia Council(Synod).

Council of Jamnia occurred around 92 AD. They made at least 5 Judgements that we know of against Christians.

A. Jesus is not the promised Messiah
B. Made the distinction between Jews and Heretics(Christians)
C. Expelled Christians from the Synagogues
D. They redefined Canon of the Tanach

They set up 4 criteria that all books had to meet in order to be included.

1. The books had to conform to the Pentateuch (the first 5 books).
2. The books had to be written in Hebrew.
3. The books had to be written in Palestine.
4. The books had to be written before 400 B.C…

Baruch was not written in Palestine. Disqualified by reason 3.
Sirach and 1Maccabees were written after 400 B.C… Disqualified by reason 4.
Tobit and parts of Daniel and Esther were written in Aramaic and outside of Palestine.
Disqualified by reasons 2 and 3.
Judith was written in Aramaic. Disqualified by reason 2.
Wisdom was written in Greek. Disqualified by reason 2.
2Maccabees was written after 400 B.C. and in Greek. Disqualified by reasons 2 and 4.
New Testament disqualified by reason 2 and 4.

E: They added to their daily blessings which all Jews are required to read everyday this curse of Christians:

Officially called the “Birkat ha-minim”

“For the Apostates let there be no hope and the arrogant government be speedily uprooted in our days, Let the Nazarenes(Christians)and the minim(Heretics) be destroyed in a moment. Let them be blotted out of the Book of Life and not inscribled together with the Righteous. Blessed art thou oh Lord, who humblest the Proud.”

Why did the Jews do this?

The Temple was completely destroyed in 70 AD.
All the Priests were killed.
They were fearful that Christianity would overtake them.
They wanted to remove references that would be useful to Christians.

Prior to the birth of Christ, the Canon of the Tanach was the Alexandrian Canon a.k.a the Septuagint.

It just seem to me that the majority of Protestants are afraid of history.

They even refuse to look at Christian history. If the history doesn’t fit their views, they alter the history by rewriting it. I shall pray for believers to understand our faith and hope oneday he becomes Catholic.

I pray all Protestants will one day become Catholic again. I leave that up to God.

 

[RNRobert]

The Church defined the Trinity in the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. The Trinity is not in the Bible.

You deny history, you might as well deny the Trinity since it is doctrine defined by the Church not the Bible.

Your logic to deny history as mere man is very erroneous in logic.

There are many historical facts in the Bible, which can be supported archeologically. If you truly deny history as a whole, you might as well deny the Bible, because the Bible is the historical document concerning the Jewish people, and God.

You’d also have to throw out the doctrine of the Incarnation, since that’s not in the Bible either.

 

[RNRobert]

It just seem to me that the majority of Protestants are afraid of history.

They even refuse to look at Christian history. If the history doesn’t fit their views, they alter the history by rewriting it. I shall pray for believers to understand our faith and hope oneday he becomes Catholic.

As Cardinal Newman said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”

 

[MariaG]

False. The Word of God isn’t called the Word of God for nothing. Man may have moved the pen but that’s as far as it goes.

Let me repeat… The Jews rejected the Apocrypha.

Let me repeat.

The Jews who rejected the “apocrypha” or the deuterocanicals, were also the jews who rejected Christ for they were not “rejected” until 90AD by the jews, primarily because so many jews were seeing the truth of Christ from them.

You are trusting the judgement of men who rejected Christ, men who could have personally rejected Christ, (lived when He lived) over the judgement of men who were followers of Christ.

 

[MariaG]

Nope, the Jewish Canon does not include the 7 books. They rejected them as Writings. Their books are the exact same books as the Protestants Old Testament.

Again… no apocrypha in the Oracles of God.

So let me get this straight.

Since the Jews who set their cannon in 90AD reject them, and because they are the oracles of God, you reject them?

And you don’t reject the New Testament that the Oracles of God rejected because

If the Jews STILL had the authority to say what was and was not God’s inspired word in the Old Testament,even after rejecting Christ, why don’t they have the the authority to say the New Testament is not God’s inspired word? Because they reject Christ?

It may surprise you, although I am sure you will reject it, that there are some Jews who become practicing Catholics violently reject that they “converted” to anything since they see the Catholic Church as the fulfilled prophecy of the Jews. So in fact, Jews would agree with you that the Jews are the Oracles of God, but the Jews who had the authority to declare what was or was not God’s inspired word were those who were ALSO followers of Christ and not those who rejected Him.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus says The Law, Prophets, and Psalms
Paul says the Jews have the Oracles.
The Oracles of God do not include the 7 books.
The 7 books are out.

I like to Add;
From Catholic Answers' How to defend the Deuterocanonicals:

Question: Since the Jews were “entrusted with the oracles of God” (Rom. 3:2), shouldn’t we have the same Old Testament canon as they do?

Answer: Though this is not a sound objection, it at least requires a detailed answer.

God’s written word was entrusted to the Jews, but he never provided them with an inspired table of contents. For that reason, there has been ample disagreement over the canon—especially among Jews.

The Old Testament took over one thousand years to compile, and the list of inspired books grew continuously as God’s word was revealed. This gradual accretion indicated that the Jewish people felt no need for a static canon but remained open to further revelation. They divided their sacred writings into three parts: the law, the prophets, and the writings (which were canonized in that order). By the time of Christ, the law—and most likely the prophets—was set in number, but the writings were not yet closed.

In Jesus’ time, the Samaritans and Sadducees accepted the law but rejected the prophets and writings. The Pharisees accepted all three. Other Jews used a Greek version (the Septuagint) that included the seven disputed books, known as the deuterocanonicals. Still other Jews used a version of the canon that is reflected in the Septaguint and included versions of the seven books in question in their original Hebrew or Aramaic.

When the Christians claimed that they had written new scriptures, Jews from a rabbinical school in Javneh met around year 80 and, among other things, discussed the canon. They did not include the New Testament nor the seven Old Testament works and portions of Daniel and Esther. This still did not settle the Pharisee canon, since not all Jews agreed with or even knew about the decision at Javneh. Rabbis continued to debate it into the second and third centuries. Even today, the Ethiopian Jews use the same Old Testament as Catholics.

If anything is certain, it is that there was no common canon among the Jews at the time of Christ

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Jesus said Psalms. He did not say “writings”.

How do you explain the Greek word “psalmos” in Luke 24:44?

Luk 24:44
And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Believers:

Jesus wasn’t taking about those books that were to be included in the Canon of Scripture. If He had been doing so, we would also have to exclude the following books which are all included in the Canon from the Council from the Council of Jamnia which are accepted by the Protestants:

Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job

Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Songs

What Jesus was trying to say was that his suffering and death fulfuilled all of the demands of the LAW, and all of the prophecies contained in the PROPHETS and the PSALMS - While many of the books of the Writings actually said nothing about about Jesus’ birth, death and resurrection.

From the footnote to the Contemporary English Version:

***Luke 24:44 Psalms: *The Jewish Scriptures were made up of three parts: (1) the Law of Moses, (2) the Books of the Prophets, (3) and the Writings, which included the Psalms. Sometimes the Scriptures were just called the Law or the Law (of Moses) and the Books of the Prophets.
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:44;&version=65;49;65;47;46;

Your post said nothing about the books most Pharisees and the Jews in the Diaspora accepted as “…is God’s Word. All of it is useful for teaching and helping people and for correcting them and showing them how to live. The Scriptures train God’s servants to do all kinds of good deeds.” 2 Tim 3:16-17 CEV

Your post failed to deal with the fact that the books that you repeatedly claim were ADDED to O.T. Canon by the Catholic Church were, in Fact, subtracted from that Canon, first by a Council in 90 A.D. that cursed our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and all those who follow Him, and then by Protestant “reformers” who believed the doctrines in those books diagreed with many of the docrines they held.

You’ve supported your contention by the claim that SOME ECF’s had misgivings about the books you refuse to accept. At the same time, you ignore the fact the overwhelming majority of ECF’S accepted these books as the Word of God used them for and teaching and helping Christians and for correcting them and showing them how to live. and, You ignore the controversy over the Book of Revelation in spite of its Apostolic Authorship, controversy which would force it off the Canon of Scripture if your Standard were applied to it.

My suspicion is that the issue isn’t the PSALMS or the WRITINGS - It’s something else. You’ve either been taught that Catholics really aren’t Christians, and that they really aren’t “Saved”, or you believe that if you should lose this argument and Catholicism should be proven correct on this, you’ll lose you freedom.

Neither could be further from the truth, but that’s the topic of a different Thread.

Believers, Did you know that they found fragments in Hebrew, Aramaic and Syraic of the Books in the Septuagent to which we had only had the Greek Books of the LXX before these finds? Could the Translation of books and sections into Greek be the Scriptural Evidence you have been looking for? Esp. since that Translation pre-dates the time of Jesus and the Council of Jamnia?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Yes, what’s your point?

Sorry… gotta run.

Believers:

The point was that it was the CHURCH inspired by God that defined all of those doctrines which all Christians, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant, take for granted. And, Most of these doctrines are not to be found explicitely in the Scriptires, although many were “hinted at” or implicit im many sections of Scripture.

To say things we do about Christ and the Trinity, we need the Councils of the Church which come from the Promise Christ gave:

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. John 14:16-17a NIV

The “leads” is a word that doesn’t have a termination date. It’s this Holy Spirit that Jesus sent that gives the Church the ability to define doctrines such as the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity and the ability to define the Canon of Sacred Scripture, both Old and New Testaments.

So, who do you believe, Jesus, or a Council that cursed Him and all who follow Him?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[runandsew]

Jesus says The Law, Prophets, and Psalms
Paul says the Jews have the Oracles.
The Oracles of God do not include the 7 books.
The 7 books are out.

How do you determine which of their oracles are correct?
Is the oracle of the rejection Jesus correct?
Is the oracle of choosing the old testament canon correct?

Do you have the Urim and Thummim to determine which is the correct oracle?