The 867th Thread on Evolution: I counted

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Again - no one has ever observed one species developing into a completely different and unrelated species. That’s what has to happen in order to prove the theory of evolution - the bacteria has to generate through the ordinary non-interfered-with process of reproduction something that is no longer actually bacteria, but a higher order of life form. (No fair cheating and “enhancing” its DNA in some way.)
No, that would be called magic, not evolution. “Completely different and unrelated species” don’t evolve from each other. That’s why they are called completely different and unrelated. It’s not like a bird one day gave birth to a bat. It’s that the first birds became different types of birds. That the first simians became different species from each other.

You are trying to suggest that all species of bacteria are the same thing. You are saying that an entire freaking KINGDOM of organisms constitute one species. Do you get that? An entire KINGDOM! Actually, textbooks in the United States since 1980 have divided bacteria into 2 FREAKING KINGDOMS! That is like saying “lemurs and humans are basically the same species”. Actually, it is like saying all animals are basically the same species. Actually, it is like saying that sea kelp and humans are basically the same thing.

Do you understand the concept “gradual changes over many generations”? Species don’t leap kingdoms overnight. Changes like that would disprove evolution, not support it.
 
Lots of creatures have been wiped out - just ask GreenPeace. And we still have Nessie and Ogo Pogo, who are probably some kind of dinosaurs, and what about the great reptiles? Dinosaurs are great reptiles, right? And we still have great reptiles among us.
Have you seen a museum do you now about dinosaurs. Okay what could possibly have wiped them all out yet left us if we existed at the same time? Sure species die out, but not such a global extinction that wipes out air land and sea, roughly locating bones during the same time period. Yet leaves humans and other mammals and the like?
Or just as easily tiger food, or grizzly bear food. But they weren’t, because God gave them the skills to survive in a harsh land. Looking back about 10,000 years ago, with the discovery of fire, archaeologists see an explosion of technology - pottery, metal-working, weaponry, organized hunting, gardening and crop-planting, which means that they also knew how to calculate the calendar - just all of a sudden, right out of (seemingly) nowhere. Nothing gradual about it - this aimlessly wandering ape suddenly becomes purposeful and self-directed, right about the time that Adam and Eve are supposed to have been created. The Book of Genesis records the occupations of each of the children of Adam and Eve, and guess what - potters, metal-workers, weapons manufacturers, hunters, farmers, and astrologists (guys who can calculate calendars). Coincidence? 🤷 😃
Should i move this to a new post to do with dinosaurs? Well dinosaurs do have alot to do with evolution and how it doesnt make sense with creation story of the bible. Okay do you know what a veloceraptor or Dynochusis was? Imagine facing down a pack of those, how about a male and female tyrannosaurus or defending your farms from grazing triceratops or stegosaurus. I mean us today would find it difficult, with all our weapons and technology, how the frack did adam, eve, cain and able do it?.

And i think alot of what you were saying comes from your first statement fire brings other things. I thought the aztecs did calenders around 10 000 years ago, oh me oh my how heaven on earth did they get to south america after getting poped out by one of cains sisters so quick?

There are so many things in current evidence that disagrees with creation.
 
Fascinating conversations, guys!

I must say, I can’t help but look at Genesis and see it as a profound mythology detailing the human condition (sin as pertains to free will) and its origins. Nevertheless, to conclude that Adam and Eve were actual, historical people seems… well, far-fetched to me at times. I used to think, “If life originated for creatures separately, then it would be entirely possible for man to evolve as an asexual organism, develop proper genderal roles, and we’d end up with Adam and Eve, so to speak.” But understanding now the odds against the formation of life on earth to begin with, I’m rooting, I think, much more for Common Ancestry. It just seems to be more realistic in this sense. THEN AGAIN, to confuse man with animal is an entirely understandable mistake scientifically speaking (when only empirical, biological conditions are taken into account), but philosophically, its ramifications are infinitely disastrous!

Man’s endowment with what we call a soul–encompassing his free will, artistic creativity, capacity for love and expression, the ability to tame primal desire, his contemplation and sentience–is an easily observed phenomenon, as is his duality: His constant struggle with his inner self and with carnal desire. These things were being observed, even if not properly understood, by cultures and peoples long before the Genesis narrative came to be. It is, in a sense, a summary of these observations in the form of a story, in other terms, a “mythology” by the word’s denotation. However, the idea of special endowment is increasingly intriguing to me: That God chose two representatives from among the homo sapiens and endowed them with human souls. In this theory, I can more rightly see God as saying to his creation, “I love you and want communion with you. But I give you a choice…” The Man and Woman are allowed to choose for themselves Life or Death, yet the primal Parents had known neither, only survival, to this point. Persuaded by the preexistent (not in sense of eternal, but rather in the sense of predating) dark forces of the universe, Man spurns his Maker’s offer.

Now having for the first time been given an option to seek his Maker’s face (as before survival was his sole part in existence), he is overcome by shame, by guilt, feelings new and strange, and signs indicative of sin. Man is basic and simple still at this point, physically identical to his homo sapien counterparts, and able to interbreed. Logically, this is what he does. The spurn of this adam, the original sin, is passed down to all subsequent generations. The Genesis account paints this same picture, just laden with images and symbols that add depth to the allegorical tale.

This is my line of thinking. Special endowment, for me, is the most logical route for a Catholic to take–or for any Christian faced with the concept of Original Sin.

Man’s great mistake was choosing himself over his Creator–his Lover–and selfishly indulging in the pleasures, choosing to seek fulfillment and insight apart from the Almighty Ordainer of things, which he has, on even the most base level, since that special endowment been aware of…

Any thoughts?

(P.S. I am truly hoping, but can anyone, without throwing in a lot of “buts” or “wells”, tell me whether the Church allows its adherents to believe in Common Ancestry? Thanks!)
 
(P.S. I am truly hoping, but can anyone, without throwing in a lot of “buts” or “wells”, tell me whether the Church allows its adherents to believe in Common Ancestry? Thanks!)
No. The Church calls this theory the “Heresy of Polygenism.”

The Church teaches us that Adam and Eve were the first human beings, and that they are (both of them together) the physical ancestors of every human being who has ever lived, and who will ever live. The definition of “a human being,” indeed, is “one who is physically descended from Adam and Eve.”

I hope this helps you.
 
Read Humani Generis, dated 1950, and available online.

What makes sense to you and what God can do can be two different things. If you are from the “the book of Genesis was just another of the myths from the past” camp, the Church tells us it was not a legend. The same with Adam and Eve.

The past 10 years or so, has seen an increase in the “God didn’t do it” Bible explanation industry. This, as if God never revealed anything to His Church. It presupposes that eyewitnesses were mistaken (?) that Jesus raised the dead or made the blind to see (as in, blind since birth in one case) or made a paralytic walk. This “mind of man” exaltation presupposes a great many things, and while such things should be carefully examined in alignment with the Teaching Autority of the Church, it is being promoted like a product, but even more than that, everywhere on the internet: “Take it! You must take it!” A theory that cannot be proved is being promoted as a fact. Does that make sense to you?

God bless,
Ed
 
No. The Church calls this theory the “Heresy of Polygenism.”
The Church teaches us that Adam and Eve were the first human beings, and that they are (both of them together) the physical ancestors of every human being who has ever lived, and who will ever live. The definition of “a human being,” indeed, is “one who is physically descended from Adam and Eve.”
I hope this helps you.
Polygenism teaches that modren humans are not all descendants of Adam and Eve, correct? As far as I know, the Church approves the “special endowment theory,” because humanity (that is, Man, as opposed to merely homo sapiens) would still be the physical and spiritual descendants of our First Parents. Consider that if indeed mankind is defined by its human soul, which by this theory has its origin in Adam and Eve, then all those “humans” to be born were out of interbreeding with Adam and Eve’s children, their spiritual and physical descendants. Thus, they inherited Original Sin and sentient souls, exalting them beyond mere homo sapiens but to men and women. Physically identical, spiritually distant… Tell me how this view contradicts the Church’s teaching regarding Original Sin? It seems to me to account for a lot, though I’m not suggesting that it is absolutely correct by any stretch of the imagination.
What makes sense to you and what God can do can be two different things. If you are from the “the book of Genesis was just another of the myths from the past” camp, the Church tells us it was not a legend. The same with Adam and Eve.
I know, I just want some kind of substance. I want to study biology and do so objectively, and I also want to see the correlation between my faith and science. However, I have to have a starting point. I have to have suppositions to approach the evolutionary theory with and also a firm ground for my faith, as well. To me, this issue is central, all-important, all-deciding. My faith is in the God of Reason, and I want to draw nigh to him through my studies and abandon all forms of intellectual deception.

“Mythology” suffers from a bad connotation, implying falsity. I am not by any stretch of the imagination suggesting this! Rather, I am calling it a summary of and a retelling of a historical event shrouded with allegory. Genesis’ purpose was to detail Man’s condition, from the beginning, and expound on his need for God. Read even as an allegory (mind you that the Church is fine with such a reading so long as Inspiration is retained) this is precisely what Genesis does. Do not think I have confused fact with fiction…

I’ll take a look at the document, as I’ve been meaning to. But as it’s been stated, the Church is subject to change her mind on these issues as new evidence is uncovered. Why, Pope Benedict even announced that new evidence was emerging for polygenism! What a leap for the Church!

Like I said, I want to be objective, and I find it hard to understand what logical alternative there is to Common Ancestry.
 
I don’t think you’ve confused fact with fiction but few look intently at what the Church knows and teaches than at the common misconceptions being spread on the internet.

You need to do your own research. You should read Humani Generis and also note that besides polygenism, the writer gives a detailed description of the strict method of approaching any subject that involves the Teaching Authority of the Church. As many times as I’m reminded that ‘no scientific theory offers proof’ I’m also told that evolution is a fact.

I think you need to honestly and objectively ask yourself why it’s such a big deal here and on any forum that questions it.Perhaps you should also talk to a priest and get live, not internet, one to one counsel.

God bless,
Ed
 
Polygenism teaches that modren humans are not all descendants of Adam and Eve, correct?
It includes several ideas, all of which end up with us having ancestors in the first generation who were not actually Adam and Eve. The first idea is that “Adam and Eve” stands for a community of persons; that sin somehow entered that community, and somehow - not through physical generation but in some other way - they passed that sin on to us.

The second idea is that Adam and Eve’s children interbred with human-like creatures (thus, their grandchildren were descended only on one side from Adam and Eve; not on both sides; thus, were only half-human - means that there could be people today living who are only half-human or even less - this is a heresy that can potentially lead to the sin of racism).

Another idea is that Adam and Eve didn’t actually mate with each other, but mated with non-humans and spread the human “special endowment” that way; this is also a heresy.
As far as I know, the Church approves the “special endowment theory,” because humanity (that is, Man, as opposed to merely homo sapiens) would still be the physical and spiritual descendants of our First Parents.
We can believe this one so long as we fully understand that neither Adam nor Eve nor any of their children ever interbred with any of their non-human look-alikes.
 
One answer was already worked out some time ago, as the scientific view of the world was gradually crystallizing; many of you probably came across it in your religious instruction. It says that the Bible is not a natural science textbook, nor does it intend to be such. It is a religious book, and consequently one cannot obtain information about the natural sciences from it. One cannot get from it a scientific explanation of how the world arose; one can only glean religious experience from it. Anything else is an image and a way of describing things whose aim is to make profound realities graspable to human beings. One must distinguish between the form of portrayal and the content that is portrayed. The form would have been chosen from what was understandable at the time – from the images which surrounded the people who lived then, which they used in speaking and in thinking, and thanks to which they were able to understand the greater realities. And only the reality that shines through these images would be what was intended and what was truly enduring. Thus Scripture would not wish to inform us about how the different species of plant life gradually appeared or how the sun and the moon and the stars were established. Its purpose ultimately would be to say one thing: God created the world.

The moment when creation became a dominant theme occurred during the Babylonian Exile. It was then that the account that we have just heard – based, to be sure, on very ancient traditions – assumed its present form.

Implicit here is the fact that the classic creation account is not the only creation text of sacred Scripture. Immediately after it there follows another one, composed earlier and containing other imagery. In the Psalms there are still others, and there the movement to clarify the faith concerning creation is carried further: In its confrontation with Hellenistic civilization, Wisdom literature reworks the theme without sticking to the old images such as the seven days. Thus we can see how the Bible itself constantly readapts its images to a continually developing way of thinking, how it changes time and again in order to bear witness, time and again, to the one thing that has come to it, in truth, from God’s Word, which is the message of his creating act.

Taken directly from “In the Beginning…” by then Cardinal J. Ratzinger
 
God created the world. What does this have to do with the debate over evolution? an unguided concept?

God bless,
Ed
 
We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the “project” of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities.

Taken from “In the beginning…” by then Cardinal J. Ratzinger.
 
God created the world. What does this have to do with the debate over evolution? an unguided concept?

You will not open you mind will you? You will not listen. It all refers to the same thing. Can’t you see that?
 
We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the “project” of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities.

Taken from “In the beginning…” by then Cardinal J. Ratzinger.
And so, the theory seeks to understand biological developments but it cannot explain where the “project” of human persons comes from. I agree with that 100%.

God bless,
Ed
 
And so, the theory seeks to understand biological developments but it cannot explain where the “project” of human persons comes from. I agree with that 100%.
What do you agree with, Ed. That statement acknowledges evolution. You deny all forms of evolution. Nothing for you to agree with.

Peace

Tim
 
And so, the theory seeks to understand biological developments but it cannot explain where the “project” of human persons comes from. I agree with that 100%.
God bless,
Ed
Hello Ed:) We both already know that the Theory of Evolution is a fact. It appears you wish to reconcile that theory with the following information. Let me know if I am correct.

**PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR JUSTICE AND PEACE

COMPENDIUM
OF THE SOCIAL DOCTRINE
OF THE CHURCH

TO HIS HOLINESS POPE JOHN PAUL II
MASTER OF SOCIAL DOCTRINE AND
EVANGELICAL WITNESS
TO JUSTICE AND PEACE**

CHAPTER ONE
GOD’S PLAN OF LOVE FOR HUMANITY
I. GOD’S LIBERATING ACTION
IN THE HISTORY OF ISRAEL

b. The principle of creation and God’s gratuitous action
26. The reflection of the Prophets and that found in the Wisdom Literature, in coming to the formulation of the principle that all things were created by God, touch on the first manifestation and the source itself of God’s plan for the whole of humanity. In Israel’s profession of faith, to affirm that God is Creator does not mean merely expressing a theoretical conviction, but also grasping the original extent of the Lord’s gratuitous and merciful action on behalf of man. In fact, God freely confers being and life on everything that exists. Man and woman, created in his image and likeness (cf. Gen 1:26-27), are for that very reason called to be the visible sign and the effective instrument of divine gratuitousness in the garden where God has placed them as cultivators and custodians of the goods of creation.
  1. It is in the free action of God the Creator that we find the very meaning of creation, even if it has been distorted by the experience of sin. In fact, the narrative of the first sin (cf. Gen 3:1-24) describes the permanent temptation and the disordered situation in which humanity comes to find itself after the fall of its progenitors. Disobedience to God means hiding from his loving countenance and seeking to control one’s life and action in the world. Breaking the relation of communion with God causes a rupture in the internal unity of the human person, in the relations of communion between man and woman and of the harmonious relations between mankind and other creatures[29]. It is in this original estrangement that are to be sought the deepest roots of all the evils that afflict social relations between people, of all the situations in economic and political life that attack the dignity of the person, that assail justice and solidarity.
    vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...peace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
Ed, it’s evident you have a great love for God and Jesus as do I. Most importantly, there isn’t anyone that can ever take away our love for them.🙂
 
sigh

…

long pause, then another sigh

I hate being confused. Stupid Darwin, always givin’ me headaches… I’m exasperated trying to get a grip on what to believe right now. If we can’t believe in the theory I stated, then I don’t know what to think. The endowment theory has too many holes if whole legions of creatures identical to humans just died off when Adam and Eve showed up (by unknown means, by the way).
The second idea is that Adam and Eve’s children interbred with human-like creatures (thus, their grandchildren were descended only on one side from Adam and Eve; not on both sides; thus, were only half-human - means that there could be people today living who are only half-human or even less - this is a heresy that can potentially lead to the sin of racism).
Another idea is that Adam and Eve didn’t actually mate with each other, but mated with non-humans and spread the human “special endowment” that way; this is also a heresy.
It occurs to me, however, that the idea that Adam and Eve’s descendents, if interbred with human look-alikes, would only be half-human is incorrect, though. “Human” is defined by spirit, not solely by physical features (which would in any case be retained without glich). Really, think about it: The LA’s (look-alikes) would be just as homo sapien as Adam and Eve–in other words, identical biologically speaking. Adam and Eve would be endowed with spirits, which their children’s children, even if interbred, would have… Thus, they wouldn’t be “half-human,” as you erroneously said. They would have all the bodily makeup of a human, and all the spiritual requirements because of Adam and Eve. The rebuttal seems flawed and the alleged errors with this theory are superficial at best.

If this view is heretical, please tell me why… but your reasoning is flawed as far as I can see.
 
Okay, to make this simple, I’M CONFUSED!!!

Here’s why:

I
Once as a kid I found a watch in the woods…took it home to my dad and asked him about it…he said…a fellow human lost it…it certainly did not make itself and just wandered off…it was much too complicated to ‘just happen’…as a retired teacher and historical site lecturer I have found that if Man descended from an animal its the jack… for he likes to fall for every crackpot scheme that comes down the pike and somehow likes to then feel he is intelligent! Jesus cautioned that ‘a camel can make it to heaven before the average wealthy man’ …for we see how the wealthy…ie corporations have so much to gain in a secular society…consider…brainwash the public that this earth is all…and itd will max out its credit cards…buy all kinds of useless unnecessary junk and keep thost cash registers glanging away for the wealthy upper class…in that horrible movie on the scopes trial…Scopes never taught evolution in the schools…that was a scheme thought up by the aclu and the town fathers…the aclu just wanted to push athiesm in the schools while the town fathers just wanted to put their backwater burg onto the map…thats the same with big foot,loch ness,crop designs etc…all cottage industrys…
 
What do you agree with, Ed. That statement acknowledges evolution. You deny all forms of evolution. Nothing for you to agree with.

Peace

Tim
Ed cannot seem to maintain a position. He’s thoroughly against any evolution then when confronted, says that well maybe “some form” of evolution is true, but only if it agrees that God is the causal agent. He has been trapped intellectually. But I think I am seeing his real point. He doesnt and will never believe in evolution because it disturbs his personal beliefs, so he will insist that he can’t believe evolution unless and until it gains a God component. He knows of course that science rightly makes no statement about the divine, so he never ever has to accede to evolution. It’s circular argument of course, but the stubborness of the fundamentalist is not to be trifled with.
 
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