The abuse scandal has eroded my confidence in our Bishops on immigration

[WatchingMedia]

The Church must minister to all who seek the Sacraments. This has nothing to do with the law of the land.

If you had read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church Second Edition”, it requires Immigrants to obey the laws of the land.
Illegal immigration is wrong unless some grave circumstances such as genocide, mass starvation, religious persecution etc., are taking place.

We appreciate our immigrant workers, but they must have green cards or other legal documents to be in the US.
(Green cards also allow immediate family members to come with them, so there is not splitting up of families.)

Our Federal Government needs to:

1. close the border for all illegal activity;
2. hold responsible all employers who hire illegal immigrants;
   and
3. make certain that our system allows for non-criminal immigrant workers to get green cards efficiently.

(The current unemployment rate amongst Americans is 9.9%.)

 

[WatchingMedia]

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=1231&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+catholicnewsagency%2Fcolumns%2Fwithgoodreason+(CNA+Columns%3A+With+Good+Reason)&utm_content=Google+Reader

• Rev. Thomas V. Berg is Executive Director of the Westchester Institute for Ethics and the Human Person

 

[diggerdomer]

T

Our Federal Government needs to:

1. close the border for all illegal activity;
2. hold responsible all employers who hire illegal immigrants;
   and
3. make certain that our system allows for non-criminal immigrant workers to get green cards efficiently.

What’s your basis for claiming that?

The Church? The U.S. government? Your own personal opinion?

 

[elts1956]

They are not politicians, economists, or really in any position to speak on the matter atleast with respect to the United States continued ability to provide for its citizens and function.

They are qualified to speak for the Truths of the Church, which if clarified, should be followed by all Catholics and wishfully other moral people. If these were clarified and adhered to, we would not live in the pro death society we now live in. Economics, Immigration, the environment and other issues could be solved with a meeting of minds. The more grevious errors of humankind, such as abortion, euthanasia etc. would not exist.,

 

[elts1956]

They are not politicians, economists, or really in any position to speak on the matter atleast with respect to the United States continued ability to provide for its citizens and function.

What’s your basis for claiming that?

The Church? The U.S. government? Your own personal opinion?

I think it’s called logic digger.

 

[diggerdomer]

I think it’s called logic digger.

Sounds like you’re opting for your personal opinion then. Ok, thanks. If you have anything objective to support your claim that we can rationally discuss, feel free to share. But if all you claim is “logic” without further explanation, well, then it’s unfortunately reduced to personal opinion (logic, after all, is subject to objective rational criteria…which you haven’t shared)

 

[elts1956]

Naive men? Wow. Well…as it’s promulgated by the Pope authoritatively, I guess we’re stuck with naive men presenting authentic Catholic doctrine.

As usual, you and I are on entirely different wave lengths. Amazing how people can read the same post and come up with entirely different logic. Get a grip.

 

[WatchingMedia]

Experience as Legislative Aide.
The Feds are culpable for not doing their job as required in existing Federal law - not only in refusing to protect our borders adequately, but also included in existing law is holding employers responsible for hiring illegals. This is nothing new.
Our current system needs to become more efficient in processing immigrant workers for green cards when jobs are available.

Our Federal Government needs to:

1. close the border for all illegal activity;
2. hold responsible all employers who hire illegal immigrants;
   and
3. make certain that our system allows for non-criminal immigrant workers to get green cards efficiently.

 

[elts1956]

Naive men? Wow. Well…as it’s promulgated by the Pope authoritatively, I guess we’re stuck with naive men presenting authentic Catholic doctrine.

Sounds like you’re opting for your personal opinion then. Ok, thanks. If you have anything objective to support your claim that we can rationally discuss, feel free to share. But if all you claim is “logic” without further explanation, well, then it’s unfortunately reduced to personal opinion (logic, after all, is subject to objective rational criteria…which you haven’t shared)

I thought that maybe you could logically understand logic??? Logic is not personal “opinion”. If that were so, then laws such as natural law would be coming from left field all the time.

 

[elts1956]

Digger, It seems the posters reference to naivetee is in reference to thinking the Bishop’s would read it. I’ve read a lot of your posts and you are a intelligent person. If the poster truly thought the writers and or the Pope were naive in the way he said, that does not alone mean he thinks they were naive in authorship of the catechism. To represent his statement as saying that is unfair on your part. I think you are better than that.
You are probably well informed on many subjects, but are like me probably naive on some other subjects.
Also I think the poster is well aware that most Bishop’s have read the catechism, maybe even memorized it. I believe he was being a more rhetorical than literal in his statement. But you probably are aware of that.

Thank you for helping her understand that. Semantics and words are tricky. I think interpretation results from an individual’s state of mind.

 

[centurionguard]

I would like to give my :two cents: in this thread. However; by doing so I hope I am not derailing such views. Firstly; the title of this thread: (“The abuse scandal has eroded my confidence in our Bishops on immigration”) seems ambiguously biased opinion in the extreme sense as if ALL BISHOPS deserve no confidence.

Yes; we have a serious problem of sexual abuse, homosexuality and pedophilia within the clergy. But is the whole Church damned as the Global Media would choose to paint the entire Catholic Church this way? Absolutely not.

The Catholic Church is not alone in these sexual scandals happening in every other Christian and non-Christian sect.

If there is any Catholic out there who chooses to leave the Catholic Church because of the scandals within the Church; then I say they are not whom they claim to be, nor are they a true devout Catholic who honors and embraces suffering for their faith.

Every Catholic sinner shoulders this scandalous burden, not just the Pope and the entire clergy.

Not surprising its typical that the Great Whore in the Global Media would stage its arsenal affront of judgment and disdain against our Beloved Pope whom I would say is hurting far more than any other Catholic who is feeling pain inside over this scandal.

But do a 1000 priests and bishops globally caught in their vile sin speak for the rest of the Catholic Churches honorable clergy? NO!!!

I find it particularly strange that very very little is spoken of the victims of rape in all this media ruckas other than the fact of victims coming out of their shell to speak about their past horrors. But who wants to hear their pain? Surely it wouldn’t sell newspapers.

Though I never was raped by a clergy member I am a male/heterosexual victim of gang-raped and torture at gunpoint. I’d say I’m more than qualified to understand the life-long stigma of rape, incest, and sexual abuse. No human being deserves this cursed dehumanization.

In conclusion; as a devout Catholic who loves my Church I strongly feel that it is our duty to pray hard for all our shepherds in the priesthood. Even those under the trials of mortification of the weak flesh as it is in all of us.

Peace
Chris

 

[rodomonte]

I would like to give my :two cents: in this thread. However; by doing so I hope I am not derailing such views. Firstly; the title of this thread: (“The abuse scandal has eroded my confidence in our Bishops on immigration”) seems ambiguously biased opinion in the extreme sense as if ALL BISHOPS deserve no confidence.

Peace
Chris

That my confidence has been eroded is not an opinion. It is a fact.

The abuse scandal was very widespread in nearly every diocese. Can anyone name the dioceses where there were no claims paid, or no claims made?

You could say the practice of covering up the abuse and transferring priests was a political act to protect the Church. That is how I look at the Bishop’s position on illegal immigration. It is a political act to mollify the Church’s many Hispanic members and many Hispanic priests, and is not hard to understand in the context of the abuse scandal.

 

[centurionguard]

That my confidence has been eroded is not an opinion. It is a fact.

The abuse scandal was very widespread in nearly every diocese. Can anyone name the dioceses where there were no claims paid, or no claims made?

You could say the practice of covering up the abuse and transferring priests was a political act to protect the Church. That is how I look at the Bishop’s position on illegal immigration. It is a political act to mollify the Church’s many Hispanic members and many Hispanic priests, and is not hard to understand in the context of the abuse scandal.

**In reply I can only say that if I were a Hispanic immigrant and also a victim of abuse caused by a priest, I would no doubt probably feel much the same as you feel in your assumptions.

However; you have to admit that your emotionality in your convictions when speaking about Catholic Bishops as a whole within the Church can easily be embellished; particularly if the situation exist that (“if”) you or I would have been a victim of sexual abuse causative of a clergy member within the Church.

If this is case in your situation then I can easily commiserate and understand your views in all this. Yet one can still get caught-up in subjective assertions against the priesthood within the entire Church for the sinful selfish behavior of some clergy members in the Church who are not who they claim to be. **

Peace
Chris

 

[GratefulFred]

My confidence in the Catholic Church remains very high.

Are all Catholic Bishops perfect? No. Only Jesus and Mary are perfect.

Is the Church too slow to respond appropriately? Sometimes we think so. But can any of us say we have ALL the facts? Sure, we have sound bite accusations repeated incessantly that take on the aura of the WHOLE TRUTH of a matter. But I am professional auditor, and in my experience, one really does need ALL the facts to be able to make a sound decision. That does take time.

Is every discipline decision the correct decision? No, but I think most are. We hear and read about the bad decisions and lose sight the the proper decisions. My Bishop handled the scandal very well several years ago; others did too; they don’t get proper public recognition in the national news media. Such recognition would weaken the secular attack on the Church.

Can a Bishop be wrong on one issue, yet right on other issues? Yes, of course. So can any of us. I am not ready to dismiss everything you have to say just because I have strong proof you are wrong on one major issue.

Men make mistakes. Even the well educated and well meaning. Forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE THOSE who trespass against us. Forgiveness does not mean that I approve or applaud serious errors or not require that meaningful amends be made. Again the national media seldom reminds us of the amends that have been made, but they surely remind of errors made.

I am certainly NOT going to give up my relationship with Jesus Christ through the Church He established with its teachings and Sacraments so necessary for my eternal salvation, just to register my “displeasure” (pick any negative word you like) with a few Bishops I think are wrong on a major issue.

 

[GratefulFred]

IMO, the abuse scandal and immigration are NOT related.

The abuse scandal was a failure to discipline in a timely and appropriate manner. Many Bishops did their job, some did not.

One could say that the weak in the abuse scandal were not protected when they should have been. But can one really assert that Catholic Bishops are not trying to protect the weak immigrant? What damage to the weak is the Church doing by reminding us of the moral need to be considerate and compassionate when dealing with weak immigrants?

If the immigrant’s only crime is being here illegally, just how harshly should he be treated?

I heard Cadinal Mahony use the “mean spirited” phrase. I also heard him ask that our government pass laws for better treatment of the migrant workers.

Immigration is an immense issue. Out of context sound bites should not be used to attack the Church’s efforts to stand up for the weakest among us.

Open immigration from a very poor nation into a welfare nation can severely damage the welfare nation. Who talks about how to get Mexico to provide better jobs and living conditons?

Illegal drug smuggling across the border. Who talks about reducing the demand for drugs that causes so much death and destruction? Do drugs make America a stronger, more desirable country to live in? Making drugs legal and taxing them will not make Americans stronger.

We do need a proper legal guess worker program. Imagine if YOU were chronically unemployed but could get some work in another country. What would you do to provide for yourself and your family?

 

[rodomonte]

IMO, the abuse scandal and immigration are NOT related.

The abuse scandal was a failure to discipline in a timely and appropriate manner. Many Bishops did their job, some did not.

One could say that the weak in the abuse scandal were not protected when they should have been. But can one really assert that Catholic Bishops are not trying to protect the weak immigrant? What damage to the weak is the Church doing by reminding us of the moral need to be considerate and compassionate when dealing with weak immigrants?

If the immigrant’s only crime is being here illegally, just how harshly should he be treated?

I heard Cadinal Mahony use the “mean spirited” phrase. I also heard him ask that our government pass laws for better treatment of the migrant workers.

Immigration is an immense issue. Out of context sound bites should not be used to attack the Church’s efforts to stand up for the weakest among us.

Open immigration from a very poor nation into a welfare nation can severely damage the welfare nation. Who talks about how to get Mexico to provide better jobs and living conditons?

Illegal drug smuggling across the border. Who talks about reducing the demand for drugs that causes so much death and destruction? Do drugs make America a stronger, more desirable country to live in? Making drugs legal and taxing them will not make Americans stronger.

We do need a proper legal guess worker program. Imagine if YOU were chronically unemployed but could get some work in another country. What would you do to provide for yourself and your family?

If you want to see all the abuse cases by diocese, try this website:
bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbydiocese.html

The Bishops of the United States have gone beyond what is morally required in regard to the handling of illegal immigrants by lobbying for amnesty and citizenship.

Illegal immigrants should be deported on air-condioned buses and given lunch and a drink. The United States is entitled to be a sovereign nation with secure borders. We need not absorb 20 million illegal aliens whose ethno-centric leaders want to take back the American southwest and make it a defacto Northern Mexico. The Bishops have been noticeably disengenous about the political intentions of their allies in the open borders lobby. Some of these leaders are already gloating about their take over of Los Angeles.

Lou Dobbs used to point out that we already have 57 guest worker programs. The only problem is the government runs them.

I will not allow my country to become subverted by a foreign country with a foreign culture and a foreign language which is trying to retake political control of 7 states they lost in a war 150 years ago.

This whole situation reminds me of the bromide, “No good deed goes unpunished.”

 

[GratefulFred]

If you want to see all the abuse cases by diocese, try this website:
bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbydiocese.html

It seems that site focuses on accusations only. Its lists do not highlight resolution. It does give the John Jay report as a reference. Table 6.1.1 in the John Jay reports shows that the Catholic paid out more than $500 million dollars to victims over a 52 year period. Nor does that site state what is the current policy Bishops are to follow.

Highlighting accusations without also highlighting what has been done to repair and what is being done to prevent is a form of dishonesty. If individuals want to rely on such dishonestly, then their conclusions may very well be faulty.

I suggest readers here should take time to review the John Jay report that was commissioned by the US Catholic Bishops so they all understand the extent of the abuse and what they must do to prevent it in the future.

 

[GratefulFred]

The Bishops of the United States have gone beyond what is morally required in regard to the handling of illegal immigrants by lobbying for amnesty and citizenship.

Illegal immigrants should be deported on air-condioned buses and given lunch and a drink. The United States is entitled to be a sovereign nation with secure borders. We need not absorb 20 million illegal aliens whose ethno-centric leaders want to take back the American southwest and make it a defacto Northern Mexico. The Bishops have been noticeably disengenous about the political intentions of their allies in the open borders lobby. Some of these leaders are already gloating about their take over of Los Angeles.

Lou Dobbs used to point out that we already have 57 guest worker programs. The only problem is the government runs them.

I will not allow my country to become subverted by a foreign country with a foreign culture and a foreign language which is trying to retake political control of 7 states they lost in a war 150 years ago.

This whole situation reminds me of the bromide, “No good deed goes unpunished.”

What is morally required? Is there an objective standard that can be provided? A Bible verse or two? Or perhaps are “moral requirements” a matter of individual choice - form of relativism that basically says “I got mine, you get yours” or “up with me and down with you.”

A bus ride for 20 million, at 50 people per bus, means 400,000 bus trips to the boarder. Do you really see that happening? In modern history has that happened? Then what? Are you sure Mexico will take them in?

Let’s say that 1/2 of them ARE employed. Who will replace them in the work they do now? I see no reports of American citizens seriously complaining that they are being denied jobs that go to illegal immigrants.

I do agree that a sovereign nation has to have secure boarders. The Federal government has NOT done this for more than 50 years. WHY? I think powerful US business interests like it the way it has been. The President has said nothing will get through Congress any time soon so he is not trying to fix the problem. WE NEED A NEW CONGRESS in November 2010.

Illegal immigrantion is clearly a POLITICAL problem. Meanwhile, I do empathize with immigrants simply trying to provide for themselves and their families. If I were in their condition, I would do the same. But some upstanding Americans imply, if they were in their place, they would simply stay in America and starve to death just as they expect the illegal immigrants seeking work to survive should do.

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church and all Christain Churches do have a moral duty, IMO, to lobby for better treatment and better law.

Yes, no good deed goes unpunished. “What so ever you do to the least of My brothers, that you do unto Me.”

I do share your frustration, but we need a better answer and the political will to make it happen.

 

[rodomonte]

What is morally required? Is there an objective standard that can be provided? A Bible verse or two? Or perhaps are “moral requirements” a matter of individual choice - form of relativism that basically says “I got mine, you get yours” or “up with me and down with you.”

A bus ride for 20 million, at 50 people per bus, means 400,000 bus trips to the boarder. Do you really see that happening? In modern history has that happened? Then what? Are you sure Mexico will take them in?

Let’s say that 1/2 of them ARE employed. Who will replace them in the work they do now? I see no reports of American citizens seriously complaining that they are being denied jobs that go to illegal immigrants.

I do agree that a sovereign nation has to have secure boarders. The Federal government has NOT done this for more than 50 years. WHY? I think powerful US business interests like it the way it has been. The President has said nothing will get through Congress any time soon so he is not trying to fix the problem. WE NEED A NEW CONGRESS in November 2010.

Illegal immigrantion is clearly a POLITICAL problem. Meanwhile, I do empathize with immigrants simply trying to provide for themselves and their families. If I were in their condition, I would do the same. But some upstanding Americans imply, if they were in their place, they would simply stay in America and starve to death just as they expect the illegal immigrants seeking work to survive should do.

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church and all Christain Churches do have a moral duty, IMO, to lobby for better treatment and better law.

Yes, no good deed goes unpunished. “What so ever you do to the least of My brothers, that you do unto Me.”

I do share your frustration, but we need a better answer and the political will to make it happen.

What is morally required is to treat illegals humanely as we repatriate them. I never said we must deport them all at once. Whatever country they are citizens of should take them.

A very large number of illegals were deported by sea in 1954:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_*******

I have seen reports by citizens denied employment because illegals work cheaper. I have also seen reports of people in well paying jobs fired because they were not bilingual. Almost anyone in a public contract job needs to be bilingual now. Who is naturally bilingual? Anchor babies. Press one for English; two for Spanish.

Give me a link to a story about anyone in Mexico starving to death. It costs about $1500 just to pay a coyote. I too empathize with illegals who come here for a better life, but no one has a right to a better life. Their better life comes at my expense. This is socialism, shoved down the throats of citizens.

Since we are not mistreating illegals, we don’t need better treatment. We don’t need better laws, only full enforcement of existing laws. Many in the government are violating their oaths of office by not enforcing existing laws, but I know politics always trumps the law.

According to mathematical theory, there is only one “least of my brothers.” Not 20 million. Just another example of extending bible quotes that refer to interpersonal relationships to realtionships between countries. How about using “turn the other cheek” to advocate Sourh Korea take another sub attack from the North.

BTW, I lived in Roseville in 1995 when I was a contractor at HP.

 

[St_Francis]

Our government has repeatedly ignored this problem for decades. When our own government does not respect the law, then how can we expect those of other nations to do so?

And if on top of our government failing to enforce the law there are businesses inviting people up here from other countries so they can save some money in labor costs, can we really condemn illegal immigrants? I mean, our government is ignoring the law, our businesses are breaking the law, and the people we come down on are the illegal immigrants? This is why I think that the bishops are supporting the illegal immigrants who are otherwise acting morally (ie, I do not think that the bishops are talking about drug-dealing illegal immigrants or coyotes).

That being said, I totally believe that the government needs to protect our borders and change our immigration laws to reflect our needs and reality.

When we consider the bishops, we need to evaluate what they say and do individually, not say that they lose credibility in one area because they were wrong in another area.