The accursed tree

[Godhead]

The serpent tempted Adam and Eve with knowledge. I really don’t understand you people. Could you help me understand your logic and reasoning? The serpent gave you knowledge between good and evil. What is so wrong with having knowledge between good and evil? Can you help me understand, I’m confused? I thought it was a good thing to have knowledge between good and evil; in that way we could choose good and see our mistakes. If having knowledge between good and evil is evil then I think it is good to be this sort of evil. Can someone please help me understand, what evil did the serpent commit by opening our eyes to good and evil?

Secondly, your God cursed the earth because someone ate a piece of fruit? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Can someone help me understand, the logic and reasoning behind these two subjects?

 

[LilyM]

The serpent tempted Adam and Eve with knowledge. I really don’t understand you people. Could you help me understand your logic and reasoning? The serpent gave you knowledge between good and evil. What is so wrong with having knowledge between good and evil? Can you help me understand, I’m confused? I thought it was a good thing to have knowledge between good and evil; in that way we could choose good and see our mistakes. If having knowledge between good and evil is evil then I think it is good to be this sort of evil. Can someone please help me understand, what evil did the serpent commit by opening our eyes to good and evil?

Secondly, your God cursed the earth because someone ate a piece of fruit? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Can someone help me understand, the logic and reasoning behind these two subjects?

God didn’t curse the earth because Adam and Eve ate a piece of fruit, he cursed Adam and Eve because they were disobedient and rebellious. Rather like a parent who makes a rule that a child can’t go out on schoolnights. If the child goes out one schoolnight without permission, that in itself won’t do them a whole lot of harm. But a good parent deserves and expects obedience in everything and will and should punish disobedience.

Fact is there WAS really no evil on earth, certainly no evil at all in mankind, as the Bible says everything God created was originally good. *Until *the serpent-devil, who was the original rebel against God and hated him, came and tempted Adam and Eve to choose it. That brought evil into humankind and onto the earth permanently.

It wasn’t just about knowing evil on an intellectual level, it was about having a permanent leaning towards *doing *evil rather than good, and that good becomes for the most part a huge effort for us. It’s called concupiscence or original sin. Which is what we are cursed with now. And is something we really can do without, as even the briefest look at the world around you will show.

And there’s more to it - the devil said ‘you will become like gods’. That was the main temptation and the main sin - the pride and futility of wanting to be like gods when we clearly aren’t and aren’t meant to be.

 

[Godhead]

God didn’t curse the earth because Adam and Eve ate a piece of fruit, he cursed Adam and Eve because they were disobedient and rebellious. Rather like a parent who makes a rule that a child can’t go out on schoolnights. If the child goes out one schoolnight without permission, that in itself won’t do them a whole lot of harm. But a good parent deserves and expects obedience in everything and will and should punish disobedience.

Fact is there WAS really no evil on earth, certainly no evil at all in mankind, as the Bible says everything God created was originally good. *Until *the serpent-devil, who was the original rebel against God and hated him, came and tempted Adam and Eve to choose it. That brought evil into humankind and onto the earth permanently.

It wasn’t just about knowing evil on an intellectual level, it was about having a permanent leaning towards *doing *evil rather than good, and that good becomes for the most part a huge effort for us. It’s called concupiscence or original sin. Which is what we are cursed with now. And is something we really can do without, as even the briefest look at the world around you will show.

And there’s more to it - the devil said ‘you will become like gods’. That was the main temptation and the main sin - the pride and futility of wanting to be like gods when we clearly aren’t and aren’t meant to be.

Listen, Adam and Eve did have prior exposure to evil. Let’s say a wild beast takes down a prey. That was exposure to murder. Are you telling me that Adam and Eve did not see this as evil prior to eating from the tree–that maybe this was not the most desireable thing that Adam and Eve could wish upon themselves.

Mankind or homo sapien has been around for over 200,000 years. Are you telling me in all that time, not one man, not one man, committed and evil act?

The truth is man was not formed out of the dust in the ground and woman was not made from a rib. Evolution is evident in the fossil record. We have fossils of humanity pre-dating the garden of eden. No, it’s not the devils’ work. It is scientific fact.

My next question is–when did the garden of Eden take place? What year B.C.? Because there are homo sapien skeletons that, I am sure, predate whatever age you give me.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Listen, Adam and Eve did have prior exposure to evil. Let’s say a wild beast takes down a prey. That was exposure to murder. Are you telling me that Adam and Eve did not see this as evil prior to eating from the tree–that maybe this was not the most desireable thing that Adam and Eve could wish upon themselves.

No, that would not be evil or murder in the traditional sense of the word.

Mankind or homo sapien has been around for over 200,000 years. Are you telling me in all that time, not one man, not one man, committed and evil act?

The Story of Creation and Adam and Eve are not literal accounts of the creation of the universe and man.

The truth is man was not formed out of the dust in the ground and woman was not made from a rib. Evolution is evident in the fossil record. We have fossils of humanity pre-dating the garden of eden. No, it’s not the devils’ work. It is scientific fact.

No kidding.

My next question is–when did the garden of Eden take place? What year B.C.? Because there are homo sapien skeletons that, I am sure, predate whatever age you give me.

Are you directing these questions to Catholics or Protestants?

 

[LilyM]

Listen, Adam and Eve did have prior exposure to evil. Let’s say a wild beast takes down a prey. That was exposure to murder. Are you telling me that Adam and Eve did not see this as evil prior to eating from the tree–that maybe this was not the most desireable thing that Adam and Eve could wish upon themselves.

Mankind or homo sapien has been around for over 200,000 years. Are you telling me in all that time, not one man, not one man, committed and evil act?

The truth is man was not formed out of the dust in the ground and woman was not made from a rib. Evolution is evident in the fossil record. We have fossils of humanity pre-dating the garden of eden. No, it’s not the devils’ work. It is scientific fact.

My next question is–when did the garden of Eden take place? What year B.C.? Because there are homo sapien skeletons that, I am sure, predate whatever age you give me.

Firstly - one animal killing another is not murder. It’s nature. Non-human animals don’t kill for pleasure or criminal motives or for any reason other than self-defence or needed food. Same as man killing animals isn’t sinful - or man killing man in self-defence.

I don’t honestly think anyone has found or can honestly set a time limit on the Garden of Eden - we were kicked out of it remember??? Never to be permitted back in??

So your claim that humans are somehow ‘older than’ Eden or committing evil prior to being kicked out of the Garden of Eden is ridiculous - we don’t know exactly where Eden was, or when or how long man was there (not long by the looks of it - not even long enough for Adam and Eve to have any children prior to being kicked out!)

Not to mention evolution can be entirely compatible with creation - though possibly not with a literalistic interpretation of Genesis. But then Christians aren’t bound to interpret Genesis literalistically anyway.

But I can tell you there is such a thing as mitochondrial DNA - passed on to us all through our female ancestors - mutates very slowly and extremely predictably and can be used to trace female ancestry back millenia. Look it up some time. Every human being alive today DOES come from ONE common female ancestor That IS scientific fact. Sounds rather a lot like Eve to me.

 

[Godhead]

ChristIsTheWay:
Listen, it really isn’t a literal account. There was no serpent guys. And the world wasn’t created in seven days. As a matter of fact the world has been around for a long time.

I’m directing these questions at Christians in general.

How can someone base truth upon fables. Saying, that the bible is the word of God. Prophets write fables or at least half truths. Am I calling God a liar. Yes, I am.

 

[Valke2]

Listen, Adam and Eve did have prior exposure to evil. Let’s say a wild beast takes down a prey. That was exposure to murder. Are you telling me that Adam and Eve did not see this as evil prior to eating from the tree–that maybe this was not the most desireable thing that Adam and Eve could wish upon themselves.

Assuming beasts preyed on each other, there’s nothing good or evil about it. And it is certainly not exposure to murder. But considering Adam and Eve needed no protection in the Garden, to the extent that they felt no need to clothe themselves, It is not unreasonable to believe they had not seen animials killing other animals.

Obviously, Adam and Eve knew right from wrong. You can’t tell someone not to do something and then punish them for disobeying if they don’t know right from wrong. Perhaps after eating from the tree they were given a moral compass. There is a difference between right and wrong and good and evil. The former does not necessarily require a moral aspect.

As I’ve said in another thread, I don’t think it was disobeying God that got them in so much trouble. After all, man was not created perfect. We are imperfect beings and God would expect us to choose wrong over right now and again. I think the real sin was failing to take responsibility. Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the snake. Perhaps the snake wasn’t banned from the Garden because it did not try to blame anyone else for its actions.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Listen, it really isn’t a literal account. There was no serpent guys. And the world wasn’t created in seven days. As a matter of fact the world has been around for a long time.

I just told you it wasn’t a literal account.

I’m directing these questions at Christians in general.

That’s a very broad audience. You’re going to get different answers.

How can someone base truth upon fables.

Define truth. Non-literal accounts all contain morals and messages. That the story used to give these messages was just a story doesn’t make the whole point of it false. You’re not an English major, one can tell.

Saying, that the bible is the word of God. Prophets write fables or at least half truths.

Again, you don’t understand all the literay means there are to deliver truth. The story can be a mere fairy tale but the point it is getting across can still be very true.

Am I calling God a liar. Yes, I am.

How childish, because making statements like that doesn’t add to constructive discussion. But its nice to see that you at least believe in God. I guess its just a matter of clearing up your misconceptions about Him.

 

[Godhead]

Firstly - one animal killing another is not murder. It’s nature. Non-human animals don’t kill for pleasure or criminal motives or for any reason other than self-defence or needed food. Same as man killing animals isn’t sinful - or man killing man in self-defence.

I don’t honestly think anyone has found or can honestly set a time limit on the Garden of Eden - we were kicked out of it remember??? Never to be permitted back in??

So your claim that humans are somehow ‘older than’ Eden or committing evil prior to being kicked out of the Garden of Eden is ridiculous - we don’t know exactly where Eden was, or when or how long man was there (not long by the looks of it - not even long enough for Adam and Eve to have any children prior to being kicked out!)

Not to mention evolution can be entirely compatible with creation - though possibly not with a literalistic interpretation of Genesis. But then Christians aren’t bound to interpret Genesis literalistically anyway.

But I can tell you there is such a thing as mitochondrial DNA - passed on to us all through our female ancestors - mutates very slowly and extremely predictably and can be used to trace female ancestry back millenia. Look it up some time. Every human being alive today DOES come from ONE common female ancestor That IS scientific fact. Sounds rather a lot like Eve to me.

Listen, man is an animal too. If a man kills a man it is not murder. It’s nature. Giving rise to your logic. O but man is not an animal. Yes, he is. If a man kills a beast. It is not murder. It is nature. Woah! That blows my head wide open! If a man kills a man it is called murder. If a man kills an animal then it is called nature. But man is an animal. No. he’s not.

Man is made out of flesh. Animals are made out of flesh. So…man has a soul. Animals don’t have souls? Why? Man and animal share flesh. Are you telling me that they don’t share souls? THEY JUST DON’T! O ok. I’m just not buying it guys.

Actually, man does still live in the garden of Eden. Don’t you remember. We bombed it recently.

Yes, we do know where Eden was. It says so right in the bible. The rivers and that thing.

Listen, if something cannot be interpretted literally then it becomes a fable and guess work.

Yea, I know that we come from one common ancestor; but homo sapien has been around for over 200,000 years. The garden of Eden did not exist. There is no way that that text could have been passed down that long of a period. If your going to take facts into account then you must take all the facts into account.

That actually would make scientific sense–that we all have one common ancestor. Suggesting that evolutions works just as that. One spawn. One mutation. mating with the others.

 

[Montalban]

Listen,

Okay, I’m listening.

man is an animal too.

Man is more than animal.

As British biologist J. B. S. Haldane wrote in 1927, “If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose my beliefs are true . . . and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.”
orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/GilderEvolution.php
also at
[Evolution and Me | Discovery Institute(name removed by moderator)age](http://www.discovery.org/scripts/vi...am=DI Main Page - Article&callingPage=discoMa(name removed by moderator)age)

 

[Montalban]

How can someone base truth upon fables.

Prove that they’re fables.

Saying, that the bible is the word of God.

This is a sentence that goes nowhere

Prophets write fables or at least half truths.

Which half is truth?

Am I calling God a liar. Yes, I am.

There should be a question mark after ‘liar’.

To use your terminology

Listen, you enter a thread and tell everyone they’re wrong.

I’m not buying it.

You offer appeals to incredulity.

I’m not buying it.

You seem concerned about pontificating - offering no evidence.

I’m not buying it.

Are you listening?

PS as you’re interested in offending Catholics and Protestants, we Orthodox feel a little left out. Come over to orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php and you can insult us as well

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Listen, man is an animal too. If a man kills a man it is not murder. It’s nature. Giving rise to your logic. O but man is not an animal. Yes, he is. If a man kills a beast. It is not murder. It is nature. Woah! That blows my head wide open! If a man kills a man it is called murder. If a man kills an animal then it is called nature. But man is an animal. No. he’s not.

Are you okay? You seem to be posting contradictory material in your responses. Are you trying to anticipate our answers or something? I would suggest not doing that. Anyways, what separates man from other animals, and this should be clear to skeptics as much as it is to believers, is humans possess intelligence and understand what they are doing. Animals, on the other hand, don’t really comprehend what they are doing. They just do it out of instinct. That’s a big difference and I don’t think you’ve recognized it.

Man is made out of flesh. Animals are made out of flesh. So…man has a soul. Animals don’t have souls? Why? Man and animal share flesh. Are you telling me that they don’t share souls? THEY JUST DON’T! O ok. I’m just not buying it guys.

Actually, animals do have souls but they cease to exist after the animal dies. Maybe at the Resurrection, God will restore them. Maybe He won’t. You seem to fail to realize the big difference between humans and animals.

Actually, man does still live in the garden of Eden. Don’t you remember. We bombed it recently.

Getting into politics, are we? Let’s take this one step at a time. Anyways, Scripture only tells us that the Garden of Eden was located in that area; that does not mean it still exists. You have to learn to understand those kinds of differences if you are effectively debate this kind of stuff. How old are you, if you don’t me asking?

Yes, we do know where Eden was. It says so right in the bible. The rivers and that thing.

That thing? Uh…okay.

Listen, if something cannot be interpretted literally then it becomes a fable and guess work.

I see you fancy yourself an authority, so tell us why that is so? Tell us why a non-literal story can’t contain morals and important messages for people?

Yea, I know that we come from one common ancestor; but homo sapien has been around for over 200,000 years.

So there is scientific evidence for an Eve but since it doesn’t fit with your world view, you reject it?

The garden of Eden did not exist.

I thought you just said it still existed? Of course, I knew what you really meant but you’re not being honest and straight forward about it. By your own logic, you can’t be trusted.

There is no way that that text could have been passed down that long of a period.

Please tell us why this is so.

If your going to take facts into account then you must take all the facts into account.

Of course, but you’ll still need to explain why it is so.

 

[Godhead]

Assuming beasts preyed on each other, there’s nothing good or evil about it. And it is certainly not exposure to murder. But considering Adam and Eve needed no protection in the Garden, to the extent that they felt no need to clothe themselves, It is not unreasonable to believe they had not seen animials killing other animals.

Obviously, Adam and Eve knew right from wrong. You can’t tell someone not to do something and then punish them for disobeying if they don’t know right from wrong. Perhaps after eating from the tree they were given a moral compass. There is a difference between right and wrong and good and evil. The former does not necessarily require a moral aspect.

As I’ve said in another thread, I don’t think it was disobeying God that got them in so much trouble. After all, man was not created perfect. We are imperfect beings and God would expect us to choose wrong over right now and again. I think the real sin was failing to take responsibility. Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the snake. Perhaps the snake wasn’t banned from the Garden because it did not try to blame anyone else for its actions.

Listen, snakes have always crawled on their bellies. In truth, God did not curse the snake and force it to crawl on it’s belly. Snakes have always crawled on their bellies.

You can say that the story of the garden of eden is an allegory rather than fact but then I just caught you. Allegories use symbolic fictional characters and actions of truth or generalizations to explain existence. That is what the story is. An allegory. Men have always done evil things. Men have always killed other men. There was really no tree with special fruit. It is an allegory. A fable. In which people take for solid fact and evidence to human existence. Never rendering other groups and cultures into the fray because the Jews want to be number one–they are after all the chosen people; whose whole belief system is based on fables and allegories. The bible berates truth because foolish men and women believe that there really was a serpent that gave Eve a piece of stupid fruit.
My point is that The Garden was an allegory, just like Plato’s allegory of the cave; however, Plato’s allegory does not berate truth–it exposes it.

 

[Godhead]

Prove that they’re fables.

This is a sentence that goes nowhere

Which half is truth?

There should be a question mark after ‘liar’.

To use your terminology

Listen, you enter a thread and tell everyone they’re wrong.

I’m not buying it.

You offer appeals to incredulity.

I’m not buying it.

You seem concerned about pontificating - offering no evidence.

I’m not buying it.

Are you listening?

PS as you’re interested in offending Catholics and Protestants, we Orthodox feel a little left out. Come over to orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php and you can insult us as well

You can’t prove to someone that something is a fable if they berate truth. The Garden is a freaking alllegory.

 

[kellie]

Listen, snakes have always crawled on their bellies. In truth, God did not curse the snake and force it to crawl on it’s belly. Snakes have always crawled on their bellies.

Could you please provide a link that proves snakes have always crawled on their bellies?

 

[Godhead]

Okay, I’m listening.

Man is more than animal.

As British biologist J. B. S. Haldane wrote in 1927, “If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose my beliefs are true . . . and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.”
orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/GilderEvolution.php
also at
[Evolution and Me | Discovery Institute(name removed by moderator)age](http://www.discovery.org/scripts/vi...am=DI Main Page - Article&callingPage=discoMa(name removed by moderator)age)

Man is more than animal because he has superior abilities. Next thing you are going to tell me is that animals really don’t possess any logic or reasoning skills.

 

[kellie]

Man is more than animal because he has superior abilities. Next thing you are going to tell me is that animals really don’t possess any logic or reasoning skills.

They don’t. They have instinct.

 

[LilyM]

Listen, snakes have always crawled on their bellies. In truth, God did not curse the snake and force it to crawl on it’s belly. Snakes have always crawled on their bellies.

You can say that the story of the garden of eden is an allegory rather than fact but then I just caught you. Allegories use symbolic fictional characters and actions of truth or generalizations to explain existence. That is what the story is. An allegory. Men have always done evil things. Men have always killed other men. There was really no tree with special fruit. It is an allegory. A fable. In which people take for solid fact and evidence to human existence. Never rendering other groups and cultures into the fray because the Jews want to be number one–they are after all the chosen people; whose whole belief system is based on fables and allegories. The bible berates truth because foolish men and women believe that there really was a serpent that gave Eve a piece of stupid fruit.
My point is that The Garden was an allegory, just like Plato’s allegory of the cave; however, Plato’s allegory does not berate truth–it exposes it.

Actually the story of the Garden of Eden, like Plato’s allegory - TELLS truth, neither “exposing” it (as though at some point it was deliberately hidden by someone?), nor berating it, whatever the heck you mean by that

Genesis tells the truth that God created the world, including humans, that being all-good himself his creation was initially good too. That he gave us free will - uniquely among all the animals - and that we abused this gift and continue to abuse it, and for that we suffered and contine to suffer.

That should be more than enough truth for you or anyone.

 

[Godhead]

Could you please provide a link that proves snakes have always crawled on their bellies?

O my god! Are you serious? That’s what defines a snake. Yes. It’s true. Some species of snakes still have legs; but these, you cannot call the good snakes. Snakes have always crawled on their bellies. If they didn’t they wouldn’t be snakes.
Guys, the Garden of Eden is a stinking allegory. I know perhaps you did not take any philosophy class. But that is what we call these pictures of words–allegories. And this allegory berates truth so much because it was faithenized–that in the end, God threw truth into the lake of fire and brimstone. Just as he threw everything else. That is how much this story, berates truth.

 

[LilyM]

O my god! Are you serious? That’s what defines a snake. Yes. It’s true. Some species of snakes still have legs; but these, you cannot call the good snakes. Snakes have always crawled on their bellies. If they didn’t they wouldn’t be snakes.
Guys, the Garden of Eden is a stinking allegory. I know perhaps you did not take any philosophy class. But that is what we call these pictures of words–allegories. And this allegory berates truth so much because it was faithenized–that in the end, God threw truth into the lake of fire and brimstone. Just as he threw everything else. That is how much this story, berates truth.

faithenized?

I actually did take philosophy and English and know an allegory from a bar of soap, and I know that faithenized is probably not even a word and that even ‘stinking’ allegories, as you yourself admitted with Plato, tell truth albeit of an atypical brand and in an atypical fashion.