The act of creation is imperfect

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Vonsalza said:
Quoting axiom is not proof.

I reject the truth value of the statement. Ergo, in order to construct logical conclusions using it as a premise, you must prove its truth value.
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Perfect by my definition is the state of actuality, being God, which means there is potentiality in it therefore it cannot change. This is my basic axiom.
 
Reepicheep said:
Your argument seems to be that the only perfect state is one of stasis. I do not agree.

If a perfect being is not capable of acting then how can it be said to be perfect? If it is capable of acting then it is capable of producing change.
It does not follow that the perfect being will itself be changed by acting.

God can change me without God being changed by the act of changing me.
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I agree with you that a perfect being is capable of creating perfect. I however have problem with the fact that a perfect being can produce change, since change is not actual, imperfect. That is the main problem related to this thread. We expect that God just create perfect thing which cannot change since there is no potentiality in it yet we observe that the creation is subject to change which means that the God who create the universe is not perfect.
 
STT said:
Perfect by my definition is the state of actuality, being God, which means there is potentiality in it therefore it cannot change. This is my basic axiom.
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I do not think I can accept your definition. Things other than God can be perfect.
An angel can be a perfect angel without being God.
A man can be a perfect man without being God.
 
STT said:
The perfection is a state without change. Creation is subject to change. Therefore creation is not perfect. This means that the act of creation is imperfect. This means that God is not perfect.
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Where does it say creation was perfect? God blessed creation calling it good. The level of perfection depends on the effort God put into Creation and where. Earth is the most blessed of the planets in this solar system. But it isn’t perfect.
 
Reepicheep said:
I do not think I can accept your definition. Things other than God can be perfect.
An angel can be a perfect angel without being God.
A man can be a perfect man without being God.
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How do you define perfect? What is a perfect man/angel and what is his difference from God?
 
The_Serpent said:
Where does it say creation was perfect? God blessed creation calling it good. The level of perfection depends on the effort God put into Creation and where. Earth is the most blessed of the planets in this solar system. But it isn’t perfect.
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Cool. If the act of creation is imperfect if you accept that God says so. This means that God is imperfect.
 
PapyrusDouay said:
This doesn’t even make sense
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That makes complete sense. Any rational being always does the best, including God. Is it rational to make better, good, neutral, bad worse or the worst instead of the best? No. Therefore one expect that perfect God does the best which means to create perfect which He couldn’t therefore God cannot be perfect.
 
STT said:
That makes complete sense. Any rational being always does the best, including God. Is it rational to make better, good, neutral, bad worse or the worst instead of the best? No. Therefore one expect that perfect God does the best which means to create perfect which He couldn’t therefore God cannot be perfect.
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In what ways do you see Creaation, and God as imperfect? I:confused:
 
STT said:
The perfection is a state without change. Creation is subject to change. Therefore creation is not perfect. This means that the act of creation is imperfect. This means that God is not perfect.
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No that would not follow.

Creation* is being created* in the state of being on the way (via)…

Being on the way…is not a conclusion of the creation…it is on the way…

And it does not in any way follow that God is not perfect.

(PS I may not see any responses…but just wanted to note that).
 
STT said:
Cool. If the act of creation is imperfect if you accept that God says so. This means that God is imperfect.
STT;14473976:
They are subject to change and moving toward perfection.
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Reductio ad absurdum

Your statement, indeed your original post, are based upon a false analogy, which would have earned an “F” in my philosophy classes at university, namely that “God equals creation” - you have yet to prove this; furthermore, the premise of your all of your subsequent positional arguments confuse association with causation in that they are attempting to associate two different variables simply because they (appear) to occur together - a lot of bad science has happened from just this type of logical error.

Although this has been an amusing thread to follow, it might be more productive if you would quit “moving the goalpost,” please make your stance on your definition of “perfect” and stick with it and please prove to us that creation is equal to God and that God is subject to change.
 
z_0101 said:
Reductio ad absurdum

Your statement, indeed your original post, are based upon a false analogy, which would have earned an “F” in my philosophy classes at university, namely that “God equals creation” - you have yet to prove this; furthermore, the premise of your all of your subsequent positional arguments confuse association with causation in that they are attempting to associate two different variables simply because they (appear) to occur together - a lot of bad science has happened from just this type of logical error.

Although this has been an amusing thread to follow, it might be more productive if you would quit “moving the goalpost,” please make your stance on your definition of “perfect” and stick with it and please prove to us that creation is equal to God and that God is subject to change.
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Well, I think we need to agree on two things: (1) Perfect is the state of actuality and (2) the best is perfect. We can now argue

(1) the creation is not perfect
(2) this means that the act of creation is imperfect
(3) a rational perfect being always does the best
(4) God is rational
(5) From (2), (3) and (4) we can deduce that God is imperfect
 
STT said:
Well, I think we need to agree on two things: (1) Perfect is the state of actuality and (2) the best is perfect. We can now argue

(1) the creation is not perfect
(2) this means that the act of creation is imperfect
(3) a rational perfect being always does the best
(4) God is rational
(5) From (2), (3) and (4) we can deduce that God is imperfect
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Or that any creation will always, of necessity, be inferior to its creator.
 
fhansen said:
Or that any creation will always, of necessity, be inferior to its creator.
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Well, then you need to find what is wrong with my argument or explain why a perfect and rational being create something inferior.
 
STT said:
Well, then you need to find what is wrong with my argument or explain why a perfect and rational being create something inferior.
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Well, even when we create the created object must be inferior to ourselves in some manner. IOW, a perfect being could still only create a being inferior to Himself. The only option is to refrain from creating at all.
 
fhansen said:
Well, even when we create the created object must be inferior to ourselves in some manner. The only option is to refrain from creating at all.
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So you are arguing that creating something perfect was logically impossible?

We created computer. They are superior to us in may respect.
 
STT said:
So you are arguing that creating something perfect was logically impossible?

We created computer. They are superior to us in may respect.
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Well, they didn’t and cannot create us. Their abilities are based on ours, not the other way around. A super-computer isn’t superior to the basic logic that it’s built on. Like any brute machine, such as a bulldozer, we utilize these devices to multiply or extend our own abilities or powers, for our purposes. God cannot physically give birth to a child. Does this make Him inferior to humans?
 
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