The Agony In The Garden

[ignatius777]

You said specifically that I was seeking answers in myself. That was a judgement of my intentions, and inappropriate, because you cannot know where I look for the answers I seek.

No I NEVER said such a thing. You may have interpreted that from what I wrote but that is not what I said. YOU claim it as a judgement which is your perogative. What I said was you are seeking answers from US which is not where answers for YOU can be found. You can look wherever and for whatever you like I shall not interfere with you again

 

[NihilObstatINRI]

No I NEVER said such a thing. You may interpreted that from what I wrote but that is not what I said. YOU claim it as a judgement which is your perogative. Wha tI said was you are seeking answers from US which is not where answers for YOU can be found. You can look wherever and for whatever you like I sahll not interfere with you again

Ok, you said I was looking for answers “in us”. Also inappropriate, because it makes the claim that I am not looking to God for the answers. Your implications are entirely inappropriate and I would like you to retract them.

 

[ignatius777]

Ok, you said I was looking for answers “in us”. Also inappropriate, because it makes the claim that I am not looking to God for the answers. Your implications are entirely inappropriate and I would like you to retract them.

Correct, in “us” meaning asking us for answers. Well MY answer was to enter into prayer and ask God to reveal it to you. If YOU take that to mean you havent done that then thats on you. That was NEVER my intention, is not now my intention nor will it ever be my intention so I feel no compunction to retract what was not done for the intention of harm. I apologize if you misunderstood what I meant and I apologize for any discomfort I have caused you but I certainly will not retract my statement to pray and ask God to reveal whatever ansers He has for you to you.

 

[NihilObstatINRI]

Correct, in “us” meaning asking us for answers. Well MY answer was to enter into prayer and ask God to reveal it to you. If YOU take that to mean you havent done that then thats on you. That was NEVER my intention, is not now my intention nor will it ever be my intention so I feel no compunction to retract what was not done for the intention of harm. I apologize if you misunderstood what I meant and I apologize for any discomfort I have caused you but I certainly will not retract my statement to pray and ask God to reveal whatever ansers He has for you to you.

I continue to find your implications to be inappropriate. Please do not continue in this thread if all you are able to do is criticize my character.

 

[ignatius777]

I continue to find your implications to be inappropriate. Please do not continue in this thread if all you are able to do is criticize my character.

And I do as well. I believe I am entitled to continue in this thread as long as I please. I also believe I am not obligated to engage you as long as I continue here and that is the option that I will exercise.

 

[NihilObstatINRI]

To continue:

Jesus’ prayer is also the most critical passage for our understanding of the Hypostatic Union, that is, that “in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human”, yet that the Son of God is one Person, not two, just as the other two Persons, the Father and the Holy Ghost, are of one substance. Jesus embodies the perfection of human will and Divine will. In us they are frequently opposed, but in Jesus they are in perfect harmony. He is untainted by sin, and therefore His orientation towards the Divine will is unhindered by the world and by evil. In Jesus is the perfected, fulfilled humanity that we achieve only in death, so as to rise again and live forever. The human element is not suppressed, or hidden, or subordinated, but is perfected and completed. God becomes man so that men might become gods (St. Athanasius). Jesus does this through radical obedience, which is the ideal towards which our human natures originally were to be ordered.
In this very short passage, Jesus shows both His true humanity through His recognition and perfection of free will, and His Divinity, when He again addresses God as Abba. The use of “Abba” displays His relationship with God, as a Son, and as consubstantial with the Father.

These passages must be seen as the final step towards the death of Christ. Here in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus takes into Himself all sin and all death. Just as He invites Peter and James and John, He too invites us personally to stay awake and keep watch. He calls us to constant vigilance, that we might turn away from sin, and contemplate only Him.
In Him, and only in Him, may we be perfected. God became man so that men might become gods.

 

[Peter_John]

Growing up Mormon, I was always taught differently about what happened in the garden (of course me being catholic now changes my belief on this a bit). The lds church teaches that in the garden, Jesus Christ physically took the sins of the world into himself, and the intensity of doing so was so great that it caused him to bleed from every pore. When Christ cried out “father, why has thou forsaken me?” it was because he was full of our sins. When he later died on the cross, the sin died with his physical death, and then the ressurection shows the final step in Christ atoning (and ultimately destroying) our sins. I dunno, just thought I’d share a different perspective. It makes a lot of sense, as compared to the “christ dying to satisfy Satan” theories and such.

I think you are confusing “Why hast thou forsaken me” and the plea to let the cup pass from him. He said the former on the Cross, not in Gethsemane. He actually said it because it was a reference to Psalm 22, and the witnesses present would have understood citing that line as a reference to the entire passage, as if he had recited the full psalm.

 

[Peter_John]

The parallels are definitely closer and that’s a far easier connection to see. However, I simply cannot see it as a coincidence that the same three apostles were there for each, rather than all of them.

I find it no coincidence that one became the first martyred Apostle (James) one became the caretaker of the Holy Mother (John) and one the head of the Church (Peter).

 

[Peter_John]

To continue:

Jesus’ prayer is also the most critical passage for our understanding of the Hypostatic Union, that is, that “in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human”, yet that the Son of God is one Person, not two, just as the other two Persons, the Father and the Holy Ghost, are of one substance. Jesus embodies the perfection of human will and Divine will. In us they are frequently opposed, but in Jesus they are in perfect harmony. He is untainted by sin, and therefore His orientation towards the Divine will is unhindered by the world and by evil. In Jesus is the perfected, fulfilled humanity that we achieve only in death, so as to rise again and live forever. The human element is not suppressed, or hidden, or subordinated, but is perfected and completed. God becomes man so that men might become gods (St. Athanasius). Jesus does this through radical obedience, which is the ideal towards which our human natures originally were to be ordered.
In this very short passage, Jesus shows both His true humanity through His recognition and perfection of free will, and His Divinity, when He again addresses God as Abba. The use of “Abba” displays His relationship with God, as a Son, and as consubstantial with the Father.

These passages must be seen as the final step towards the death of Christ. Here in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus takes into Himself all sin and all death. Just as He invites Peter and James and John, He too invites us personally to stay awake and keep watch. He calls us to constant vigilance, that we might turn away from sin, and contemplate only Him.
In Him, and only in Him, may we be perfected. God became man so that men might become gods.

It certainly demonstrates the Biblical basis of teaching Trinity, for those who might deny it just because the word is not used.

 

[maryj]

The current thing I’m trying to figure out is the connection between the Transfiguration and the Agony. I notice that only Peter James and John are present at each, and I can’t imagine that being simply accidental. However I’m not sure what the connection is right now.

divineoffice.org/?date=20110320

from the liturgy of the hours, office of readings, sunday March 20.
scroll down to the second reading. Such an interesting question. discussed this just today with our associate pastor.

 

[NihilObstatINRI]

I find it no coincidence that one became the first martyred Apostle (James) one became the caretaker of the Holy Mother (John) and one the head of the Church (Peter).

Ooh, good call. That hadn’t occurred to me. That’s what I’m talking about. More to think about.

 

[NihilObstatINRI]

divineoffice.org/?date=20110320

from the liturgy of the hours, office of readings, sunday March 20.
scroll down to the second reading. Such an interesting question. discussed this just today with our associate pastor.

Heyyyy, also awesome! Now we’re really getting somewhere. Thanks for digging that up!

 

[Crumpy]

divineoffice.org/?date=20110320

from the liturgy of the hours, office of readings, sunday March 20.
scroll down to the second reading. Such an interesting question. discussed this just today with our associate pastor.

you lost me, could you give the citation of the reading you are referrring to? Thanks.

 

[NihilObstatINRI]

you lost me, could you give the citation of the reading you are referrring to? Thanks.

It took me a minute too. Go to the “Office of Readings” tab on the top, then scroll down. It should be a sermon from Pope Leo the Great.

 

[Peter_John]

Ooh, good call. That hadn’t occurred to me. That’s what I’m talking about. More to think about.

They were also the only three present at the raising of Jairus’ daughter.

My wife reminds me that James was the first Bishop of Jerusalem, and Peter the first of Rome. Where this fits in, with John I don’t know, but some argue he took a mission to Asia Minor. I do not know if there id ever any evidence that he assumed a bishopric in the vicimity of the city later known as Caonstantinople/Istanbul.

This would give each of them place as significant bishops for the major rites (counting the ancient Jewish requirement to follow Mosaic law as a rite) of Christianity: The Jewish converts in Jerusalem, the Western Gentiles and the Eastern Gentiles. The latter would be particularly ironic, given John’s close association with the Blessed Virgin and the Eastern Churches deeply embedded devotion to her. I am curious if anyone knows of an association betwen Coptic Christians and th Church i Jerusalem.

I just say that as tossing ideas out, not as an argument, since I do not know how accurate some of these ideas would be.

One other thought, for all that we seek some deep reason for his selecting these three as common companions, it could be simpler. It is very telling how frustrated he got with them for repeatedly falling asleep during the Agony in Gethsemane. If they had some concurrent better understanding of the others of what it was about, it didn’t show. They seemd to take it at the time as one more night ion prayer.

Perhaps these were just his three best friends, and they were the ones he wanted around the most for these special events. The night of the Agony, he wanted their company and nobody else’s as he suffered. It could be as simple as that. I think that sometimes we err on the side of considering Jesus’ actions in light of him being fully God, when sometimes they merely demonstrate how fully human he is.

 

[irishcolleen45]

My son who attends the Latin rite Church that’s in union with Rome says that he was told that Gethsemane was actually the place where St Joseph was buried (among others). Is that true? I have never heard that before.

 

[NihilObstatINRI]

My son who attends the Latin rite Church that’s in union with Rome says that he was told that Gethsemane was actually the place where St Joseph was buried (among others). Is that true? I have never heard that before.

By “Latin rite” you most likely mean Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite. The majority of Catholics (i.e. almost all non-Eastern Catholics) are Latin Rite, however most attend the Ordinary Form of that rite, i.e. the Novus Ordo, or the Mass of Pope Paul VI. The Extraordinary Form is celebrated according to the 1962 missal, which is more or less unchanged from that which was formally codified (not created mind you, merely codified) at the Council of Trent.

To answer your question… it may be a pious legend, but there’s nothing of it in Scripture, and I can’t with preliminary research find any mention of it. However, Theodosius writes that a Basilica and sepulcher dedicated to Mary are there. Of course Mary’s body would not be there as she was taken bodily into heaven, though we could think that it is possible that the Basilica is at the spot at which her life on earth ended.

 

[irishcolleen45]

Yes, I do mean the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

I haven’t done any research on St Joseph being buried in Gethsemane. I haven’t read any of the Church Fathers to prove or disprove this.

Where is the Basilica, in Ephesus?

Thank you for your response.

By “Latin rite” you most likely mean Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite. The majority of Catholics (i.e. almost all non-Eastern Catholics) are Latin Rite, however most attend the Ordinary Form of that rite, i.e. the Novus Ordo, or the Mass of Pope Paul VI. The Extraordinary Form is celebrated according to the 1962 missal, which is more or less unchanged from that which was formally codified (not created mind you, merely codified) at the Council of Trent.

To answer your question… it may be a pious legend, but there’s nothing of it in Scripture, and I can’t with preliminary research find any mention of it. However, Theodosius writes that a Basilica and sepulcher dedicated to Mary are there. Of course Mary’s body would not be there as she was taken bodily into heaven, though we could think that it is possible that the Basilica is at the spot at which her life on earth ended.

 

[NihilObstatINRI]

Yes, I do mean the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

I haven’t done any research on St Joseph being buried in Gethsemane. I haven’t read any of the Church Fathers to prove or disprove this.

Where is the Basilica, in Ephesus?

Thank you for your response.

I can’t say I know what basilica it might be. Here’s what I got from newadvent.org:

A fragmentary account of a pilgrimage in the fourth century, preserved by Peter the Deacon (1037), mentions “a grotto at the place where the Jews the Savior captive”. According to the tradition it was in this grotto that Christ was wont to take refuge with his disciples to pass the night. It was also memorable for a supper and a washing of the feet which, according to the same tradition, took place there. Eutychius, Patriarch of Constantinople (d. 583), says in one of his sermons that the Church commemorates three suppers. “The first repast”, he says, “together with the purification, took place at Gethsemani on the Sabbath day, the first day, i.e. when Sunday was already begun. That is why we then celebrate the vigil” (P.G., LXXXVI, 2392). The second supper was that of Bethany, and the third was that was that of Holy Thursday at which was instituted the Holy Eucharist. Theodosius (c. 530) describes this grotto in these terms: “There [in the valley of Josaphat] is situated the basilica of Holy Mary, Mother of God, with her sepulchre. There is also the place where the Lord supped with his disciples. There he washed their feet. There are to be seen four benches where Our Lord reclined in the midst of His Apostles. Each bench can seat three persons. There also Judas betrayed the Saviour. Some persons, when they visit this spot, through devotion partake of some refreshment, but no meat. They light torches because the place is in a grotto”. Antonius of Plaisance (570), Arculf, Epiphanius the Hagiopolite, and others make mention of the well known pasch of which the grotto of Gethsemani was witness. In the Church of the Agony the stone was preserved on which, according to tradition, Jesus knelt during His Agony. It is related by the Arculf that, after the destruction of the church by the Persians, the stone was removed to the grotto and there venerated. In 1165 John of Wurzburg found it still preserved at this spot, and there is yet to be seen on the ceiling of the grotto an inscription concerning it. In the fourteenth century the pilgrims, led astray by the presence of the stone and the inscription, mistakenly called this sanctuary the Grotto of the Agony.

 

[patrick457]

I can’t say I know what basilica it might be. Here’s what I got from newadvent.org:

A fragmentary account of a pilgrimage in the fourth century, preserved by Peter the Deacon (1037), mentions “a grotto at the place where the Jews the Savior captive”. According to the tradition it was in this grotto that Christ was wont to take refuge with his disciples to pass the night. It was also memorable for a supper and a washing of the feet which, according to the same tradition, took place there. Eutychius, Patriarch of Constantinople (d. 583), says in one of his sermons that the Church commemorates three suppers. “The first repast”, he says, “together with the purification, took place at Gethsemani on the Sabbath day, the first day, i.e. when Sunday was already begun. That is why we then celebrate the vigil” (P.G., LXXXVI, 2392). The second supper was that of Bethany, and the third was that was that of Holy Thursday at which was instituted the Holy Eucharist. Theodosius (c. 530) describes this grotto in these terms: “There [in the valley of Josaphat] is situated the basilica of Holy Mary, Mother of God, with her sepulchre. There is also the place where the Lord supped with his disciples. There he washed their feet. There are to be seen four benches where Our Lord reclined in the midst of His Apostles. Each bench can seat three persons. There also Judas betrayed the Saviour. Some persons, when they visit this spot, through devotion partake of some refreshment, but no meat. They light torches because the place is in a grotto”. Antonius of Plaisance (570), Arculf, Epiphanius the Hagiopolite, and others make mention of the well known pasch of which the grotto of Gethsemani was witness. In the Church of the Agony the stone was preserved on which, according to tradition, Jesus knelt during His Agony. It is related by the Arculf that, after the destruction of the church by the Persians, the stone was removed to the grotto and there venerated. In 1165 John of Wurzburg found it still preserved at this spot, and there is yet to be seen on the ceiling of the grotto an inscription concerning it. In the fourteenth century the pilgrims, led astray by the presence of the stone and the inscription, mistakenly called this sanctuary the Grotto of the Agony.

By the way, there is an archaeologist who makes her case that the Grotto of the Agony could indeed be the place where Jesus and His disciples stayed during the night of His arrest (the Synoptics notably never mention a ‘garden’, and John only uses the word kēpos, a general term meaning ‘a cultivated tract of land’). And yes, the cave is reached by a long corridor to the right of the courtyard leading to the traditional Tomb of the Virgin.