The Allure of Mormonism-Get Under the Surface

[in_servitude]

You seem very sincere in your question, in_servitude. The best answer I can give comes from the Good Book.

Well, I’m certainly not here to waste my time or the time of others - so let me assure you that I am sincere. But, my question is about this story of the LDS people having their faith confirmed by going on a dangerous journey. If the Bible is able to answer the questions I have about that story, then those people did not need to go on a dangerous journey in order to have their “bible based faith” confirmed.

In Matthew 24:24, Jesus tells us that the last days that some of the very Elect of God of God will be deceived by signs and wonders.

(KJV) For there shall rise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Yes. And, Christ also gives us the tools we need to know. To KNOW if we are being deceived or not. We don’t need to sit and tremble in fear of being deceived. We can know by looking at the fruit.

The Lord’s explanation of the Parable of the Sower is also very insightful in explaining that some will fall away because of persecution, tribulation, personal offense, or too many cares of the world.

I don’t think so. The point of this parable, rather, is that God is continually granting graces to everyone. To all people, regardless of their willingness to receive those graces. The seeds fall upon all of us. Some of us, however, are fertile soil - some of us will receive those graces and they will grow and produce fruit.

The point is NOT that we are going to fall away because of persecution. If a seed falls on a rock - and then the evil come by and picks those seeds up - how could that possibly shed light the way God interacts with those on a dangerous, deadly journey?

In your story, someone stands up and condemns those that negatively judge the people leading others into danger. He condemns them because he says that the trip was not ill conceived. Rather, he claims it was a good thing since it provided a way for God to grant them graces. And, it was through those graces (according to this guy) that everyone came to believe that the LDS Church was the “true church.”

Also, I would note that Peter became stronger over time. Even thought Peter was frequently in the presence of Jesus, The Savior still spoke of a future time when Peter would be converted.

Luke 22:32 (KJV) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

I use the NAB translation. Here is what I see in that verse:

Peter’s Denial Foretold.31 “Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you* like wheat, 32 but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.” 33 He said to him, “Lord, I am prepared to go to prison and to die with you.” 34 But he replied, “I tell you, Peter, before the cock crows this day, you will deny three times that you know me.”

Thus, Peter was scared out of his mind and didn’t have the strength to give his life at point of Jesus’ Passion. I’d be curious if there is proper justification to say that Peter was “converted” at a later time. After all, he left his whole life to follow Christ. And, when all the disciples around Christ left him in John 6, Peter stood by Jesus. So, I don’t believe it is a proper analysis to say that Peter didn’t have faith in the first place.

I hope this helps.

I don’t see how the dangerous and deadly journey was a good thing. I’m very familiar with the “burning of the bosom” that all people supposedly receive when they “honestly ask” about the truth of the LDS faith. Therefore, there is no need for a deadly journey in order for God to grant graces. Within the LDS faith - the burning in the bosom already confirms it.

But, maybe for the guy that stood up in that class and said that the deadly journey was necessary, maybe he didn’t get the burning in the bosom - maybe he needed those other graces since he wasn’t granted the grace of a burning bosom.

 

[in_servitude]

Original Sin is a doctrine that Mormonism has rejected, so while all of Christianity understands sin and suffering as undesirable, we understand that God allows sin and suffering and will use both for His own good. We don’t believe God creates sin or suffering just to test us. We also believe that God never ceases calling to us, even in our sin and suffering, God is there. Mormonism teaches that in sin and suffering, God leaves the building, abandoning the person(s) because of their sin. How they reconcile this to the Cross, and scripture (Christ died for us while we were still sinners) I have never figured out.

So, our sin causes God to leave the building. But, God causes bad things to fall upon us on purpose, so that we will be tempted to sin - or lose faith - I suppose. And, when that happens, God leaves those people alone.

Mormonism teaches that all suffering in this life is a test, where one passes or fails according to how faithful one remains to God. Those who pass become gods in the next life. To a Mormon view, your foster child was being tested, and failed. These tests are designed by their God.

Reading these words you are writing causes me to feel great sadness.

There is often a double bind that can be seen in the Mormon view and experience of things.

I LOVE God! - and you’ve increased my appreciation of the Catholic Church!!

 

[Porknpie]

TexanKnight:
Tex,

2 Timothy 4:4 is very telling…

2 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. 5 As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry.

There never was an apostasy in the Catholic Church…to say so and to believe the stories of Joseph Smith is to buy into a myth (apostasy, Maroni, golden tablets, American Indians from the Middle East, great civilization in the America’s with chariots and temples, a great battle on hill Cumorah NY, etc)

Pork

 

[RebeccaJ]

Is it a pattern in Mormonism to tell feel good tall tales?

ha! Yes, they are called faith promoting stories.

lds.org/new-era/1978/07/the-how-and-why-of-faith-promoting-stories?lang=eng

Some stories are true, some are rumors and some are entirely made up and presented as something that really happened.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So, our sin causes God to leave the building. But, God causes bad things to fall upon us on purpose, so that we will be tempted to sin - or lose faith - I suppose. And, when that happens, God leaves those people alone.

There’s the double bind.

Reading these words you are writing causes me to feel great sadness.

I agree.

I LOVE God! - and you’ve increased my appreciation of the Catholic Church!!

I’m with you there.

 

[Stephen168]

ha! Yes, they are called faith promoting stories.

lds.org/new-era/1978/07/the-how-and-why-of-faith-promoting-stories?lang=eng

Some stories are true, some are rumors and some are entirely made up and presented as something that really happened.

Yes, I heard that rumor now that you remind me.

 

[gazelam]

My Mormon friend said that the real reason my past foster child was given any help was only so that God later could rub it in his face. “See!” my friend said that God would say to my past foster child, “I tried to help you and you just threw it all away!” My friend’s demeanor changed dramatically during this episode, but it did at least let me know what he thinks about the true nature of God.

This is not the Mormonism I know. (It may be a Mormon I know. ) The Mormonism I know teaches that God weeps over his unrighteous children. The Mormonism I know teaches that God will reach out to the vilest of sinners, such as, Paul. The Mormonism I know teaches that God sent not his Son to condemn the world.

 

[gazelam]

Original Sin is a doctrine that Mormonism has rejected, so while all of Christianity understands sin and suffering as undesirable, we understand that God allows sin and suffering and will use both for His own good.

This statement is a contradiction. How can something be undesirable and used for a positive outcome at the same time? (And yes, Mormonism rejects the doctrine of original sin).

Mormonism teaches that in sin and suffering, God leaves the building, abandoning the person(s) because of their sin.

This is untrue. Mormonism teaches that Christ has paid the ransom for our sins. If your statement were true Mormonism would be teaching that everyone is lost because all have sinned. Mormonism teaches that Christ is mighty to save.

 

[twopekinguys]

This is not the Mormonism I know. (It may be a Mormon I know. ) The Mormonism I know teaches that God weeps over his unrighteous children. The Mormonism I know teaches that God will reach out to the vilest of sinners, such as, Paul. The Mormonism I know teaches that God sent not his Son to condemn the world.

Then why are mormons excommunicated if they land in prison?

Isn’t that when they may need God the most?

 

[zaffiroborant]

This is not the Mormonism I know. (It may be a Mormon I know. ) The Mormonism I know teaches that God weeps over his unrighteous children. The Mormonism I know teaches that God will reach out to the vilest of sinners, such as, Paul. The Mormonism I know teaches that God sent not his Son to condemn the world.

That is the Mormonism you display when you use the handcart fiasco as an example of people knowing God.

 

[zaffiroborant]

This statement is a contradiction. How can something be undesirable and used for a positive outcome at the same time? (And yes, Mormonism rejects the doctrine of original sin).

Really??? How about teaching your children the dangers of drug use by talking about the death of a child in the neighborhood? Or the person who killed a family when driving drunk who goes around talking to young people about the terrible consequences of such an action. Was the child’s heroin overdose a good thing because others learned to avoid it because they heard the story, I bet his family would disagree. Was the death of so many at the hands of a drunk a good thing because a bunch of high school kids decided to not drink and drive at prom time? Do you suppose the grandparents of those little kids thought it was a good thing their grandkids died since other kids wouldn’t make stupid choices after hearing about their deaths.

This is untrue. Mormonism teaches that Christ has paid the ransom for our sins. If your statement were true Mormonism would be teaching that everyone is lost because all have sinned. Mormonism teaches that Christ is mighty to save.

Except for murder Christ’s payment didn’t cover murder which can’t be forgiven.

 

[Stephen168]

This is untrue. Mormonism teaches that Christ has paid the ransom for our sins. If your statement were true Mormonism would be teaching that everyone is lost because all have sinned. Mormonism teaches that Christ is mighty to save.

This is not the Mormonism I know. (It may be a Mormon I know. ) The Mormonism I know teaches that God weeps over his unrighteous children. The Mormonism I know teaches that God will reach out to the vilest of sinners, such as, Paul. The Mormonism I know teaches that God sent not his Son to condemn the world.

Does the Mormonism you know believe in the great apostasy?

 

[TexanKnight]

This is not the Mormonism I know. (It may be a Mormon I know. ) The Mormonism I know teaches that God weeps over his unrighteous children. The Mormonism I know teaches that God will reach out to the vilest of sinners, such as, Paul. The Mormonism I know teaches that God sent not his Son to condemn the world.

And that is your worst problem. As you have demonstrated, you truly do not know mormonism

 

[TexanKnight]

This statement is a contradiction. How can something be undesirable and used for a positive outcome at the same time? (And yes, Mormonism rejects the doctrine of original sin).

seriously? Good can usually come from bad if we allow it. An example: the Mormons trying to kidnap my children was horrible, but that incident help lead me out of the false church and eventually into the True Church. See?

This is untrue. Mormonism teaches that Christ has paid the ransom for our sins. If your statement were true Mormonism would be teaching that everyone is lost because all have sinned. Mormonism teaches that Christ is mighty to save.

That is not really true. Mormonism teaches that no matter what Jesus did, it takes js to get to heaven. There are so many rules to get to the celestial kingdom that what Jesus did is lost in the translation

 

[TexanKnight]

Really??? How about teaching your children the dangers of drug use by talking about the death of a child in the neighborhood? Or the person who killed a family when driving drunk who goes around talking to young people about the terrible consequences of such an action. Was the child’s heroin overdose a good thing because others learned to avoid it because they heard the story, I bet his family would disagree. Was the death of so many at the hands of a drunk a good thing because a bunch of high school kids decided to not drink and drive at prom time? Do you suppose the grandparents of those little kids thought it was a good thing their grandkids died since other kids wouldn’t make stupid choices after hearing about their deaths.

Except for murder Christ’s payment didn’t cover murder which can’t be forgiven.

when I left the lds church, I was told I had committed the unforgiveable sin of rejecting the Spirit…

 

[zaffiroborant]

Originally Posted by gazelam
This statement is a contradiction. How can something be undesirable and used for a positive outcome at the same time? (And yes, Mormonism rejects the doctrine of original sin).

seriously? Good can usually come from bad if we allow it. An example: the Mormons trying to kidnap my children was horrible, but that incident help lead me out of the false church and eventually into the True Church. See?

This is untrue. Mormonism teaches that Christ has paid the ransom for our sins. If your statement were true Mormonism would be teaching that everyone is lost because all have sinned. Mormonism teaches that Christ is mighty to save.

That is not really true. Mormonism teaches that no matter what Jesus did, it takes js to get to heaven. There are so many rules to get to the celestial kingdom that what Jesus did is lost in the translation

Is there any other religion that teaches sinning(disobeying God) is a good thing??

 

[TexanKnight]

Is there any other religion that teaches sinning(disobeying God) is a good thing??

There is not to my knowledge.

lds is the only church that chooses their prophet over their once-a-man-who-became-a-god

 

[LivingWaters7]

For those interested, I posted a short post on my blog on Shuster’s Catholic Roots, Mormon Harvest. A longer review will come soon. I hope that no [poorly catechized] Catholics are misled by this book, because he has fundamental, important misunderstandings about Catholic teachings and practices (most are nothing we haven’t already heard before, such as confusing the Trinity with Modalism, not understanding revelation, vain repetition, intercessory prayer, praying to statues (he prayed to statues himself as a child because he didn’t understand what he saw other people doing!), etc.

ldsguy2catholic.wordpress.com/2013/09/08/catholic-roots-mormon-harvest-book-review-shortly/

 

[debbie_h]

For those interested, I posted a short post on my blog on Shuster’s Catholic Roots, Mormon Harvest. A longer review will come soon. I hope that no [poorly catechized] Catholics are misled by this book, because he has fundamental, important misunderstandings about Catholic teachings and practices (most are nothing we haven’t already heard before, such as confusing the Trinity with Modalism, not understanding revelation, vain repetition, intercessory prayer, praying to statues (he prayed to statues himself as a child because he didn’t understand what he saw other people doing!), etc.

ldsguy2catholic.wordpress.com/2013/09/08/catholic-roots-mormon-harvest-book-review-shortly/

 

[in_servitude]

This is not the Mormonism I know. (It may be a Mormon I know. ) The Mormonism I know teaches that God weeps over his unrighteous children. The Mormonism I know teaches that God will reach out to the vilest of sinners, such as, Paul. The Mormonism I know teaches that God sent not his Son to condemn the world.

Thanks! I appreciate this greatly.