The Altar & Candles?

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Nota_Bene

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The GIRM states that at least two candles need to be on or next to the altar.

In my parish we had one candle directly to the left the the altar (OK), the other to the far right of the ambo, about 20 feet away (unacceptable.) After asking that we follow the GIRM many times, I simply moved the candle from the ambo over to the altar at the beginning of Mass. This drove the “liturgy coordinator” into a frenzied state as she claimed that the liturgy committee’s interpretation allowed the configuration. No way. Thankfully the pastor got involved and now we have two candles next to the altar.

The problem is that two candles stand next to each other on the left of the altar, while a third stands 20 feet away on the opposite side of the ambo. Not only does it look odd, the configuration is based on the “theology of the altar of the word (the ambo) and the altar (of sacrifice) as being one in the same” – a quote from the coordinator.

That is plain wrong, so my question is, should I keep moving the candles? It takes less than 15 seconds, but some of the ladies in the liturgy committee (there are no men) seem to be filling with hatred and nastiness over this issue and it’s getting tough to take. I also don’t want to bother the pastor again – they are worse abuses to clearn-up where we will need his help.

Ideas?
 
Nota Bene:
That is plain wrong, so my question is, should I keep moving the candles? It takes less than 15 seconds, but some of the ladies in the liturgy committee (there are no men) seem to be filling with hatred and nastiness over this issue and it’s getting tough to take. I also don’t want to bother the pastor again – they are worse abuses to clearn-up where we will need his help.

Ideas?
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Threaten to go to the Priest and do what you think is right.
 
Candles??? I have not seen candles or a crucifix at our Cathedral at St Agnes in Rockville Centre in 7 years I have been going there…a plain white table with a white cloth in the middle with nothing else…something that looks like a crucifix hanging from the rafers…It really has the look of a Protestant church
 
I think the church would be wise to convene an Ecumencial Council to address this question.
 
Nota Bene http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_430711”, true);
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Yes, Roman Catholic Masses are said with a minimum of TWO (2) lighted candles on the altar. I could go back and find that…but Nota Bene you are correct!

Whay are there candles in the first place? Before electricity candles were needed so the Priest could read. It make no sence to have a candle 20 feet away.

40 years ago I asked an Old Monsenior why we had candles. He said ,“Candles are there so if the lights go out I can read the Mass”.
You keep doing what is fitting, correct and practical. What’s the matter with the priest? If my priest went to the alter and there was only one candle, he’d get another one !!

Do your homework, try to find a St. Joseph’s Missal , one that has the pictures of the altar, show those litrtle old ladies the PICTURES. St. Joseph Missal shows 6 candles. Also at the back of the 100 dollar Bibles you see the alter w/ 2 or 4 candles. We use 4 in my church.
 
if this is the only thing your liturgy coordinator is doing wrong, please get down on your knees this instant and thank God, and humbly offer to join the liturgy team (if you have a coordinator you must have a team), read the GIRM, and above all, pick your battles.
 
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katherine2:
I think the church would be wise to convene an Ecumencial Council to address this question.
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Hi,

You must belong to the infamous committee.

Fogny
 
Nota Bene,

Keep on keeping on! When we are faithful in the small things, we will be faithful in the larger ones. You would do well to join the committee and get in on the discussions before they become battles. Then you won’t have to choose what you contest – have a regular briefing for the pastor so that he will be in on everything also and there won’t have to be threats. He is the one for whom all these things are done, anyway, and he should have the final word. If something is being suggested that would be in violation of the GIRM, no matter what the committee has planned, he should have a veto power.

Crusader,

Why don’t you get involved in YOUR liturgy committee – sounds as if they could use a sane head. Go armed with lots of reference material so that you have muscle behind your offerings.

Katherine2,

I haven’t been around here long, but you seem to be out of step. Get a grip and find out why you have such a grudge against the true Catholic Church and those who are trying to live up to their Baptismal vows and their vocation as members of the Body of Christ. I wonder if it is just too difficult for you to find your place in the secular world so that you believe that you can bully those in the Church. Better realize just who you are actually fighting when you choose the Church to rail against! Much bigger fish than you have seen a sad and bitter end to such quarrels!
 
Exporter said:
Nota Bene http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_430711”, true);
Junior Member

Yes, Roman Catholic Masses are said with a minimum of TWO (2) lighted candles on the altar. I could go back and find that…but Nota Bene you are correct!

Whay are there candles in the first place? Before electricity candles were needed so the Priest could read. It make no sence to have a candle 20 feet away.

40 years ago I asked an Old Monsenior why we had candles. He said ,“Candles are there so if the lights go out I can read the Mass”.
You keep doing what is fitting, correct and practical. What’s the matter with the priest? If my priest went to the alter and there was only one candle, he’d get another one !!

Do your homework, try to find a St. Joseph’s Missal , one that has the pictures of the altar, show those litrtle old ladies the PICTURES. St. Joseph Missal shows 6 candles. Also at the back of the 100 dollar Bibles you see the alter w/ 2 or 4 candles. We use 4 in my church.
Click to expand...

2 for normal low MASS
4 FOR Pontifical Low Mass or Sung Mass
6 for High Mass
Kapisz?
 
Exporter said:
Nota Bene http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_430711”, true);
Junior Member

Yes, Roman Catholic Masses are said with a minimum of TWO (2) lighted candles on the altar. I could go back and find that…but Nota Bene you are correct!

Whay are there candles in the first place? Before electricity candles were needed so the Priest could read. It make no sence to have a candle 20 feet away.

40 years ago I asked an Old Monsenior why we had candles. He said ,“Candles are there so if the lights go out I can read the Mass”.
You keep doing what is fitting, correct and practical. What’s the matter with the priest? If my priest went to the alter and there was only one candle, he’d get another one !!

Do your homework, try to find a St. Joseph’s Missal , one that has the pictures of the altar, show those litrtle old ladies the PICTURES. St. Joseph Missal shows 6 candles. Also at the back of the 100 dollar Bibles you see the alter w/ 2 or 4 candles. We use 4 in my church.
Click to expand...

Neither source means a thing. The current GIRM states that we need at least 2 candles ON or NEAR the altar.
 
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puzzleannie:
if this is the only thing your liturgy coordinator is doing wrong, please get down on your knees this instant and thank God, and humbly offer to join the liturgy team (if you have a coordinator you must have a team), read the GIRM, and above all, pick your battles.
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If you take the time to re-read my initial post you’ll notice that I mentioned there are other problems.

I would never join our liturgy committee. It’s members are very poorly educated (even in a secular sense) and catechised, it’s horribly inbred (by any standard), it’s heterodox (again, by any standard), it’s sexist (not a single male member, misandry rules), it holds meetings when most people are at work, the meeting times are not published, and one must ask permission to attend a meeting if they are not a member – and they can be denied permission. In sum, a huge cesspit.
 
Nota Bene:
If you take the time to re-read my initial post you’ll notice that I mentioned there are other problems.

I would never join our liturgy committee. It’s members are very poorly educated (even in a secular sense) and catechized, it’s horribly inbred (by any standard), it’s heterodox (again, by any standard), it’s sexist (males need not apply), it holds meetings when most people are at work, the meeting times are not published, and one must ask permission to attend a meeting if they are not a member – and they can be denied permission. In sum, a huge cesspit.
Click to expand...
 
Nota Bene:
If you take the time to re-read my initial post you’ll notice that I mentioned there are other problems.

I would never join our liturgy committee. It’s members are very poorly educated (even in a secular sense) and catechised, it’s horribly inbred (by any standard), it’s heterodox (again, by any standard), it’s sexist (not a single male member, misandry rules), it holds meetings when most people are at work, the meeting times are not published, and one must ask permission to attend a meeting if they are not a member – and they can be denied permission. In sum, a huge cesspit.
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You just described the meeting rules of Freemasonry, and the communist party conclaves modeled after them.
This is not a catholic parish, it’s a coven.
 
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Patjoe:
Katherine2,

I haven’t been around here long, but you seem to be out of step. Get a grip and find out why you have such a grudge against the true Catholic Church and those who are trying to live up to their Baptismal vows and their vocation as members of the Body of Christ. I wonder if it is just too difficult for you to find your place in the secular world so that you believe that you can bully those in the Church. Better realize just who you are actually fighting when you choose the Church to rail against!
Click to expand...
The Church to rail against? I seem part of the minority here that is actually happy and joyeous about the Catholic Church. I read post after post of people who are so bitter and unahppy and complaining about the Catholic Church. For me, its great source of joy.
 
Katherine

It is a great source of joy as it fills our hearts as we know we belong to something special…but it was revamped in the 60’s and it is still being tinkered with and we just want to stop the insanity!
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katherine2:
The Church to rail against? I seem part of the minority here that is actually happy and joyeous about the Catholic Church. I read post after post of people who are so bitter and unahppy and complaining about the Catholic Church. For me, its great source of joy.
Click to expand...
 
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katherine2:
The Church to rail against? I seem part of the minority here that is actually happy and joyeous about the Catholic Church. I read post after post of people who are so bitter and unahppy and complaining about the Catholic Church. For me, its great source of joy.
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At least yur not paranoid. You are in the minority.
So enjoy it while it lasts. I’m for chaos too…at football parties and democratic conventions. I just never could move the same enthusiasm for chaos over to the Mass Liturgy.

I still get overwhelmingly “joyful” at a musty TLM High Mass. 6 candles show up like the rising sun. I never have to check the rubrics, or bring my GIRM copy or canon law books with me to Mass, to see if a proper “catholic” mass is really taking place.

With the “new springtime” you just can’t be sure what will crop up in the garden…weeds, fire ants, beetles, half naked dancers, movie screens, clowns, halloween masks, black lights, glow in the dark vestments…
If the “new springtime” isn’t joyful, at least it’s unpredictable.
 
I remember reading (but I can’t remember exactly where, I think maybe Scott Hahn’s “The Lamb’s Supper”) that the placement of the candles at the altar had much to do with the heavenly liturgy described by John in Revelation. In that, three candles were on each side of the altar in ascending height, with the priest (in personam Christi) completing the arrangement as the center light. This would form the menorah, in imitation of the menorah which was a fixture of the Temple. All theology regarding the menorah and its symbolism would apply, I think.
In this case, it seems that 6 candles would be appropriate, and this is the arrangement at the cathedral in my diocese.

In peace,
Alan
 
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TNT:
At least yur not paranoid. You are in the minority.
So enjoy it while it lasts. I’m for chaos too…at football parties and democratic conventions. I just never could move the same enthusiasm for chaos over to the Mass Liturgy.

I still get overwhelmingly “joyful” at a musty TLM High Mass. 6 candles show up like the rising sun. I never have to check the rubrics, or bring my GIRM copy or canon law books with me to Mass, to see if a proper “catholic” mass is really taking place.

With the “new springtime” you just can’t be sure what will crop up in the garden…weeds, fire ants, beetles, half naked dancers, movie screens, clowns, halloween masks, black lights, glow in the dark vestments…
If the “new springtime” isn’t joyful, at least it’s unpredictable.
Click to expand...
TNT,
I always enjoy your posts. Thought I’d cut & paste a partial post I sent in another forum this morning.

"I have children to raise and I choose to raise them in the Faith of their Fathers before them. Because Rome says that it is my right to attend and worship at the Traditional Latin Mass, why, dear Lord, would I subject my children to the Novus Ordo and all that comes with it?

Keep in mind that I have NEVER called into question the validity of the Novus Ordo. But I will not subject my children to milk-toast homilies, EMHCs, standing in the conga line to receive, hand holding/hand clapping Protestant style services, and above all some of the most atrocious music ever written (“Here I am Lord”; “On Eagles Wings”). Gregorian Chant, Mozart, Bach, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, et al will do just fine.

Having said all that, I want my kids to at least have a chance of remaining in the Faith!"
 
Nota Bene:
If you take the time to re-read my initial post you’ll notice that I mentioned there are other problems.

I*.*
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If there are other, graver problems in your parish, why are they not your topic of discussion?
What have you done to document the abuses and report them to your bishop, according to correct procedure? If you are content to come here and complain, it is a good bet nothing is going to be resolved anytime soon.
 
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