The American hierarchy & the TLM.

[Thomas_Casey]

One more post that compares and contrasts the EF and OF and we’ll have to close the thread.

Please stick to the OP’s question. The question was clear, expressed politely and asked with sincerity, not with the intent to start a schoolyard brawl over the two forms of the Holy Mass.

Thank You

Thomas Casey
Moderator

 

[archangel04]

It seems to me, that you overestimate the power of the rite.
The TLM attract less than 1% of the priests and the laity. I do not believe that anyone feels threatened by it. The only thing what the bishop shpuld do: to think if the service of the 1 % is preferable in the expense of the over 90% or not

Statistic:

400,000 priest for the new rite, less than 2000 for the TLM

In the US 40,000 vs less than 400

According to the latest statistics in England 1% of the total attend TLM and 10% of the total (40% of the quarter who attends Masses regularly) is ready to try it.

Although your statistics are probably true and I won’t argue with that, don’t you think the numbers are the way they are because most Catholics are ignorant about that form of the mass? Those seminarians who request to learn how to say the EF, do you not think some if not most are given “the look” by their superiors?

 

[ProVobis]

I am curious as to how many of you think that the** majority** of the Bishops are happy about S.P. If so, why do you think that is. If not, again why?

I would be happy if they showed a clip of the EF in their CatholicsComeHome commercials along with their other clips. It only makes sense if they want to bring back the lapsed Catholics or others who are looking to attain a higher spirituality level.

 

[laszlo]

Although your statistics are probably true and I won’t argue with that, don’t you think the numbers are the way they are because most Catholics are ignorant about that form of the mass? Those seminarians who request to learn how to say the EF, do you not think some if not most are given “the look” by their superiors?

There are desires to be different from the mainstream, and for some people this is permanent, but the rule, the Ordinary form, the norm is what the Church made norm, and we should seek the reason for that not why it is wrong. God stands with the church, not with our desires.

We shall concentrate of keeping the rubrics not on the rite itself. The recent rigor of the TLM can and will help this goal, and this is the role of the TLM: help to show the value of the adherence to to rules. We must know however, that this rigor is not inherent, if there would be no new rite the TLM would be abused. The abuse comes from people not from the Church approved rite.

 

[ProVobis]

There are desires to be different from the mainstream, and for some people this is permanent, but the rule, the Ordinary form, the norm is what the Church made norm

Are you perhaps reading too much into it or using that to slam the EF again? Would you say the English Mass is the norm or “rule” in Chicago? I’m afraid you would be upsetting a whole lot of Poles and Hispanics bigtime.

I’m sorry but there is no “norm” or “rule” is mentioned here:

Art. 1. Missale Romanum a Paulo VI promulgatum ordinaria expressio “Legis orandi” Ecclesiae catholicae ritus latini est. Missale autem Romanum a S. Pio V promulgatum et a B. Ioanne XXIII denuo editum habeatur uti **extraordinaria expressio **eiusdem “Legis orandi” Ecclesiae et ob venerabilem et antiquum eius usum debito gaudeat honore. Hae duae expressiones “legis orandi” Ecclesiae, minime vero inducent in divisionem “legis credendi” Ecclesiae; sunt enim duo usus unici ritus romani.

Proinde Missae Sacrificium, iuxta editionem typicam Missalis Romani a B. Ioanne XXIII anno 1962 promulgatam et numquam abrogatam, uti formam extraordinariam Liturgiae Ecclesiae, celebrare licet. Conditiones vero a documentis antecedentibus “Quattuor abhinc annos” et “Ecclesia Dei” pro usu huius Missalis statutae, substituuntur ut sequitur:

 

[laszlo]

To Pro Vobis.

I do not intend this tread to be closed, so leave you the definition of norm.

As for the original question, that can be answered factually by some research.

web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm#illinois list the locations of TLM’s, and for most states can be found map of dioceses like this for Illinois
stewardshiprockford.org/pdf/Map-IllinoisDioceses.pdf

For my state

Chicago has 11 TLM locations
Rockford 4
Joliet 3

Peoria 4
Springfield 1
Belleville 1

No bishop rejects the TLM. Related to the area (which is important from the points of those who want to attend TLM Mass), the 2 downstate dioceses are underrepresented, but this probably the consequence of the overall lack of priests.

No bishop believes that the TLM is the only true Mass.

I hope others will come up with the statistics for other states.

 

[Sirach2]

Only one parish offers this mass on a regular basis in the entire Pittsburgh area, as far north as Erie, and to the border of PA on the south.

 

[Brooklyn]

Only one parish offers this mass on a regular basis in the entire Pittsburgh area, as far north as Erie, and to the border of PA on the south.

The question is, why? Is it because of lack of interest on the part of the parishoners, or does it have to do with the hierarchy? It is no longer necessary to get permission to say the TLM, so any priest who has the ability to say this Mass should be able to do it. Why aren’t they? First and foremost, it is true that the vast majority of priests do not know how to say this Mass, nor do they seem interested in learning. Older priests may have celebrated this rite when they were young, but they have long since forgotten it. And just from my own personal experience, most older priests (60+ years) want nothing to do with this Mass.

I think that what those of us who love the TLM are trying to say is that you can’t say that the reason this Mass isn’t more widespread is because the average Catholic isn’t interested in it. Most Catholics know nothing about the TLM. It has to do with the fact that the average priest is not interested in learning it. It is a long and difficult process. Just a few months ago there was a very holy priest who celebrated Mass at a church I went to, and in his homily he used a Latin term and then apologized because he does not know Latin! That, unfortunately, is true for most priests. Latin was long ago dropped from seminary classes.

Please don’t blame the Mass or the average Catholic sitting in the pews. It is up to the priests, pure and simple, to promote this Mass, and if they don’t, it won’t be heard.

 

[Sirach2]

Brooklyn:

The question is, why? Is it because of lack of interest on the part of the parishoners, or does it have to do with the hierarchy?

I doubt we will know the answer to that, for unless we polled the bishops and priests as to their feelings about it, and unless they were honest about them, this poll is only guessing. Surely, we see the results as manifested in scarcity of the TLM, but none of us knows the fullness of the reasons for it.

 

[Brooklyn]

There are desires to be different from the mainstream, and for some people this is permanent, but the rule, the Ordinary form, the norm is what the Church made norm, and we should seek the reason for that not why it is wrong. God stands with the church, not with our desires.

We shall concentrate of keeping the rubrics not on the rite itself. The recent rigor of the TLM can and will help this goal, and this is the role of the TLM: help to show the value of the adherence to to rules. We must know however, that this rigor is not inherent, if there would be no new rite the TLM would be abused. The abuse comes from people not from the Church approved rite.

This is a subtle post trying to say the OF is “better” than the EF. Remember the TLM was celebrated for 1500 years by the Church and was the only rite celebrated in the Roman rite. So I really think that not only is this argument against forum rules, but to say that the Church somehow thinks the OF is a “better Mass” is just plain silly. Let’s stop these kind of contests.

As far as whether the TLM would be abused, it was very rare during the 1500 years. There were no clown or puppet Masses, no changing of the wording, etc. Why do you think it survived almost entirely intact down through the centuries?

 

[Brooklyn]

I doubt we will know the answer to that, for unless we polled the bishops and priests as to their feelings about it, and unless they were honest about them, this poll is only guessing. Surely, we see the results as manifested in scarcity of the TLM, but none of us knows the fullness of the reasons for it.

Before the Moto Proprium, a Bishop had the authority to say yes or no to the TLM. Now, it is up to the church pastor. Why aren’t more pastors offering to their parishoners this 1500 year old rite which produced probably millions of saints? People can’t ask for something they don’t know anything about.

The very fact that the TLM is as scarce as it is does not have anything to do with the people. How could it? It has to do with whether priests are making it available to their congregants. As I said, several churches here in NYC have a weekly TLM, and one has a daily TLM. That is because the pastors of these churches decided to offer it. And to borrow from the cliche, “Offer it and they will come.”

 

[ProVobis]

Please don’t blame the Mass or the average Catholic sitting in the pews. It is up to the priests, pure and simple, to promote this Mass, and if they don’t, it won’t be heard.

Exactly. And to keep promoting it.

When the 1988 decree to make the 1962 Missal more “wide and generous” was released the then (not exactly considered conservative) Chicago Cardinal immediately set up the TLM in four different locations. I learned that they drew immediate crowds but a couple of them eventually were discontinued. However 20 years later, the Archdiocese now has the EF in at least 10 different locations on a Sunday morning. And more priests are being trained at St. John Cantius.

Somewhere the seeds must be sown.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I can’t speak about the American heirarchy, but our Canadian Archbishop is very supportive of the FSSP parish in our archdiocese

bccatholic.org/the-news/429-clayton-richard-long

 

[malphono]

The very fact that the TLM is as scarce as it is does not have anything to do with the people. How could it? It has to do with whether priests are making it available to their congregants. As I said, several churches here in NYC have a weekly TLM, and one has a daily TLM. That is because the pastors of these churches decided to offer it. And to borrow from the cliche, “Offer it and they will come.”

Not only simply “offer it” but promote it and, as I said in an earlier post, explain it. Those who are ignorant of the very existence of Summorum Pontificum and/or the EF itself, will remain ignorant if they don’t know the “what and the why” of it. It’s all in the catcechesis. Unfortunately, it is that very catechesis which is sorely lacking.

 

[Brooklyn]

Not only simply “offer it” but promote it and, as I said in an earlier post, explain it. Those who are ignorant of the very existence of Summorum Pontificum and/or the EF itself, will remain ignorant if they don’t know the “what and the why” of it. It’s all in the catcechesis. Unfortunately, it is that very catechesis which is sorely lacking.

This unfortunately and sadly is just generally true in the Church. There is a vast number of Catholics who don’t even believe in the Real Presence. And far too many who don’t think there is anything wrong with missing weekly Mass, no matter which rite it is.

 

[archangel04]

Very true, as I mention to some members on this board, I have two parishes that offer the TLM every sunday that are less than 30 minutes from my house, but it’s hard to find any promotion on them. Second, the time slots, one parish offers their mass at 8 am, most people who go to mass at that time, atleast in my area, are those who are above retired age. The other parish offers theirs at 530 pm, most people are enjoying the sunday afternoon with their family, most people attend mass from 9 am to 12 pm. At my home parish I asked the father if we should allow a TLM at our parish to see who would come and how many would come, at least for a couple of months, but he shun me down with an iron fist . All I got from his were excuses about why the people do not want this form of the mass, I thought to myself, well why not let the people decide then. Oh well.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Very true, as I mention to some members on this board, I have two parishes that offer the TLM every sunday that are less than 30 minutes from my house, but it’s hard to find any promotion on them. Second, the time slots, one parish offers their mass at 8 am, most people who go to mass at that time, atleast in my area, are those who are above retired age. The other parish offers theirs at 530 pm, most people are enjoying the sunday afternoon with their family, most people attend mass from 9 am to 12 pm. At my home parish I asked the father if we should allow a TLM at our parish to see who would come and how many would come, at least for a couple of months, but he shun me down with an iron fist . All I got from his were excuses about why the people do not want this form of the mass, I thought to myself, well why not let the people decide then. Oh well.

Lets be a little frank here, you’d really be hardpressed with parishes promoting even OF Masses of another parish. Financially, each parish would want to keep her parishioners. Case in point, the area I live in has 3 parishes about 5-10 minutes drive from each other. One of the parishes started offering a Chinese Mass (there’s a lot of Chinese in Vancouver). You don’t see our parish advertise something like, “to the Chinese parishioners, there’s a Chinese Mass at theat other parish 5 minutes from here. Go there.”

Of course every priest of every parish would like to think that they can fulfill every spiritual need of their parishioners, at the same time have the numbers to keep their parishes up and running.

 

[CradleCath]

There are desires to be different from the mainstream, and for some people this is permanent, but the rule, the Ordinary form, the norm is what the Church made norm, and we should seek the reason for that not why it is wrong. God stands with the church, not with our desires.

Agreed! The Ordinary Form of the Mass is the Novus Ordo. The TLM. is the Extraordinary form. I believe that the majority of Catholics will probably stick with the the OF.,…for now, at least. But, that is NOT what this thread is about. This thread is about what the hierarchy in this country AND you AND I have been asked to do…that is to **open our hearts ** & not only “accept” the TLM., but accept it as EQUAL in holiness & grace & a treasure that we should embrace.

I have been told time & again that this Mass wasn’t “codified” until the council of Trent, therefore should not be called the “Mass of the Ages”…but it is. It has grown ORGANICALLY since the Last Supper.

I’m a gardener & I know how the proud oak grows best: It must be cut back some years to grow strong & shapely & sometimes a limb just has to be cut off, as it takes all the nourishment & leaves the rest of the tree to get by on what it doesn’t want. Another year, different limbs have to be tied up so the shape of the tree will be correct & bring shade to this earth. Some years it will grow 10 ft., others it won’t grow in height at all. Sometimes one has to fertilize to assure it’s leafiness, & ALWAYS one has to be on guard that some contractor doesn’t come along & cut it down to get his equipment to the place he wants it.

That is how the Catholic Mass of the Latin Church, codified at Trent, has grown…organically, & we must not let it be cut down. All I want is for the Bishops & priests in our country to realize that, to nurture this Mass, to fertilize it by OFFERING classes & introducing it, at least as an additional Mass in RCIA classes.

And to be more aware of and attentive to those who have a spiritual need for the extraordinary form of celebrating the Mass, especially the young who seem to feel a need for, as one young parent in our parish told me, “something more”. I know exactly what he meant, but don’t know how to communicate that to the people on this board.

We shall concentrate of keeping the rubrics not on the rite itself. The recent rigor of the TLM can and will help this goal, and [Bthis is the role of the TLM: help to show the value of the adherence to to rules. **

 

[Brooklyn]

Lets be a little frank here, you’d really be hardpressed with parishes promoting even OF Masses of another parish. Financially, each parish would want to keep her parishioners. Case in point, the area I live in has 3 parishes about 5-10 minutes drive from each other. One of the parishes started offering a Chinese Mass (there’s a lot of Chinese in Vancouver). You don’t see our parish advertise something like, “to the Chinese parishioners, there’s a Chinese Mass at theat other parish 5 minutes from here. Go there.”

Of course every priest of every parish would like to think that they can fulfill every spiritual need of their parishioners, at the same time have the numbers to keep their parishes up and running.

Parishes don’t have to do this. Most dioceses have a newspaper. That is where the Masses can be promoted, as they are here in New York. There is a section just for TLM Masses.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Parishes don’t have to do this. Most dioceses have a newspaper. That is where the Masses can be promoted, as they are here in New York. There is a section just for TLM Masses.

As my post above, ours get ample coverage on the local Catholic newspaper. They can also be easily sought out through the archdiocese website.

My understanding of the train of thought of that conversation is that priests of the diocese should be promoting the TLM. I don’t really see parishes promoting regular Masses of another parish. I often see special Masses being promoted, but not regularly schedule ones. And also its up to the priest and parish of the TLM to actually go and promote. Maybe they should be going on tour of some kind among Catholic schools to expose kids to it. They should do this for TLM, Anglican Use (when it becomes widely available) and every Eastern Catholic Rite thats within the area of the diocese.